How Much Pulling is Too Much?--A Swim Question
Rich pulls a lot in his swims. Most of the workout, he says. But Rich is Rich. He knows how to swim for real. He's accomplished and fast. He knows what to do and what works for him.
Now what about someone like me/us?
I mostly swim the sets without any assistance, until I get tired or need a break--then I use the pull buoy. Last few swims, however, I experimented and used the pull buoy more frequently. I got out less tired (duh), and my legs felt fresher on the bike the next day. I'm wondering if working easier with the pull buoy assistance, and taking less out of myself in the swim is a good place to preserve some energy in the training overall?
I'm not trying to excel at swimming in any way, and I will be in a wetsuit at the Ironman. So does it matter how much you pull? What are your thoughts?
Comments
My notes on pulling:
Bottomline, I think pulling is a good thing but you need to be most aware of the body rotation thing above. Really focus on getting a good rotation when you are pull. No rotation = flat shoulders = not as powerful and setting yourself up for shoulder injuries.
Also, NO PADDLES, BANDS OR OTHER FUNKY SWIMMER STUFF WHEN PULLING!! Those tools are made for guys like (ustabe) me with years and years of volume and strength in our shoulders. You're just asking for shoulder injury with those things. Good to use them, briefly, to get excellent feedback about your catch but NOT as a strengthing tool.
I dare anyone outside da haus to get an answer like that from their $300/month coach. Thanks, Rich. It's a Hall of Fame-er/
Werd!!!
good question, great answer! thanks!!!
when the hand is strong enough, I'll work on adding in some pull drills with the buoy!
Yep very helpful Rich thanks! Though confession I use really small (orange tyr) paddles while pulling
I have found have helped with my pull.
Just another reason why I feel comfortable on this team. Up until Aug 2008, I did ALL of my swim training using a pull buoy (except when I did back or breaststroke, or kicked). It's the way I've been "swimming" for the past 40 years. I always felt a *little* guilty about that, but not enough to try and change, even in the face of criticism from coaches and other experts. I've since started using DeSoto Speed Tube for my warm up meters, but still don't really kick all that much, just enough to keep my feet up and stay straight. Now I have official sanction, complete with reasonable explanation, for continuing to play hooky from kicking when I train for Ironman.
I have been working on just that, more rotation and a more powerful catch.
I suck at swimming but on Monday I did 2 pull sets, 1 X 2000 @ 32:00 and 1 X 2000 @ 35:00 on 2 min rest. Both as a result of concentrating on front quadrant and good upper body form b/c of the pull buoy...now I need to get somebody to swim with me in the lane for a little contact practice
Rich,
In the Swim Clinic eBook where it says the line between swimming for technique and swimming for speed and fitness is a swim golf score around 80 (under 40 strokes, 40-44 sec per 50 yards), does that assume zero propulsive kicking? I've gotten my kick down to just a tiny one at the start of each rotation to help drive the rotation, and I'm at 36 strokes per 50 yards, but my time is 54 seconds so my golf score is 90. Can I really get down to 40sec/50yds with no kicking, just pulling with proper technique? Or does that also require pull power comparable to an FTP of 300? Just curious because while I appreciate having completely fresh legs for the bike, I feel like I'm going soooo slowly right now, and I'd like to have some hope of speed in my future.
EDITED TO ADD: Well, that'll teach me to RTFM out of order, LOL. Now I see where a 17:30-18:00 for 1000yds is "good" swimming, the point of diminishing returns. 18:00 is 54 sec per 50yds, so I shouldn't actually expect to go faster, just work on sustaining my current pace indefinitely, and in open water, and I'm basically there, eh? Well, that puts a completely different complexion on things.
Certainly no expert on swimming but I would think that with 16 strokes per 25 you would be going faster than 54 seconds pretty easily. How many strokes are you taking when you just swim.
Unless you sink in open (non-salt) water WITH a wetsuit! Don't laugh, it's true.
Yes, yes it is true.
I'm not hearing about the disadvantange of too much buoy use.
Many folks, even with wetsuit, drag their bottom half of their body deep in the water, when it should be at the surface.
So, regular use of the buoy would just foster ongoing poor body positioning.
For this reason, for folks with poor body positioning, shouldn't the use of a leg float be a rare thing? Coaches and all?
What about using short fins for pulling?
n=1 expierence when used with minimal kicking, get god body position with little effort, maintains good feeling on body rotation, streches angles while exercising and supports gliding & front quadrant swimming.
Is this useful?
I then did a split distance in training using the pool buoy. For instance the set called for 200, I'd do a 50 wit and a 50 wit-out...
Before this thread I didn't know if it was wrong or right I just had to get my distance in and the buoy made that possible without the foot cramps. It also made the workout faster cutting down on pool time.
My thoughts using the buoy were , well I'm going to be in a wet suit anyway and that helps me keep my legs up.
My IM swim was 56:50 , I'm a MOP swimmer all day long should have been 1h 15/20 min ,was very current friendly ...
@David, I'd take a look at what John Culberson has written up, you might benefit from some kick sets just to build up some strength so that the minimal kicking you do when regularly swimming doesn't cramp you up!
FWIW, that's pretty much my thinking with the masters swimmers/triathletes I coach.
A pull buoy is useful if:
- You already have good form and good body position
- You already have an efficient kick which is well-timed to drive the upper body rotation in the stroke.
- You are using it to specifically work on drills for the upper body - catch, recovery, breathing, etc. and don't want to have to worry about kicking
- You are using it to simulate a wetsuit swim where there will be disproportionate use of the upper body
- You use it to work on your two-beat kick
- You have an injury that prevents you from using your legs while swimming
A pull buoy is not useful if:
- You use it as a subtitute for developing proper body position and form
- You use it to swim with a lane that's faster than your actual swimming speed and therefore further degrade your form
- You avoid learning proper kicking technique, especially the development of an efficient and effective two beat (distance) kick
- Your hips slosh around when pulling, thus accentuating or worsening a hip-rotating stroke as opposed to a torso-based reaching stroke
I am not using short fins to train kicking, I use them to better "float" - to extend my legs. I do only a soft/light 2 beat kick to support the body rotation. With that I have a body position which feels very like to wetsuit swimming and feel almost no use on my legs.
But to be honest I do that only for longer pulling sets (400+m), not for fast 50/100 or 200m sets - there i like to be "pure".
@ John good stuff on the fin post since my IM is over I have been using fins more with just the idea that they would help with my ankle flexibility. I'm more run trained than pool so pointing my toes in the pool to mimic fins really doesn't work for me , for example using a kick board without fins I go backward. At the master group in the AM I noticed too that they swim on their backs using fins. If it's a good ROI I'm in ...Thx
If you go backwards using a kickboard, it's more likely due to too much knees involved in the kick, and/or little to no ankle flexion (i.e. pointing the toes instead of letting them flex). I would look at the knees first though, that's the most common culprit, esp. for people who spend a lot of time biking and running
A good drill for that is to kick on your back, hold one end of a kickboard loosely in your hands and letting it float over the tops of your knees.Don't use fins on this drill. Keep the hips up, and kick. Your feet should be at the surface of the water, breaking the surface, and your knees should not bump the board. If your knees are bumping the board, then you know it's the "bicycle knees" (kicking with too much knee bending), if your feet aren't breaking the surface, you may also be bending your knees too much which is pulling them down under the water.
You can also have someone videotape you while kicking on your back. If your knees pop out of the water, that's the culprit right there.
It's one of the hardest things to learn in swimming: how to bend your knees very little while kicking, yet keep your ankles and feet loose and flexible. We just never do that on land, we do the opposite. One thing to try on land is to stand on your left leg, pretend there's something sticky like peanut butter on your right big toe and try to "flick" it off by rapidly flicking your right foot back and forth. That's similar to the motion you employ while kicking - little knee bend, a lot of foot floppiness. Repeat with the other leg, then try it in the pool.
Like Al, I bought a DeSoto Speed Tube bottom last summer and have been extremely pleased. When I use a pull buoy, I improve only 1-2 sec/100 but w/ the Speed Tube I improved 5-8 sec/100!!! Not exactly sure why but it seems to more closely replicate what I experience in a wetsuit vs. using a pull buoy.
I have a weak kick but am working on plantar flexing my ankles and improving the timing. I learned to swim in 2001 so it is NOT natural for me. My golf score is usually around 68-70 (w/o Speed Tube) but I have a low turnover and am a "glider". I usually swim 63-65 minutes in an IM. Bill Wiseman convinced me to use a pull buoy more frequently based on Rich's advice but I wasn't very pleased using it until I got the Speed Tube and now would be happy to swim 100% of my yardage in it! But I don't...
I love the info in threads like this one! Keep it up guys! Thx.