Help! Where to sit on the Saddle?

jsumara

Seems obvious I know but I'm now confused. I have an Adamo ISM Racing 2 Saddle. I had my bike fitted last year and I was pretty comfortable with how I sat on it last season. One change is that over the Winter I moved my shoe cleats back in an attempt to fix the toe numbing I experienced on long rides. Moving them ended up being a bit of a hack job - drilling holes in the cleats, etc - but in the end it allowed me to move them back to where the pedal spindle is about 1.5" to 2" behind the normal ball-of-the foot location. I think this fixed the numbness issue. I lowered my seat a little to accommodate this new cleat location.

Anyway, now when I ride (only on the trainer thus far) I find myself more on the front of the saddle saddle and it's not all the comfortable. I try moving back to "normal" but that seems less powerful and I end up back towards the saddle nose. The saddle is at its max forward position and appears to be level so it's not like I'm sliding that way. I will say I like being forward as it's a more "aggressive" position and it seems to help with wattage output. The only issue is that I'm not sure this is a long term riding position as I'm not sitting on the sit-bones.
So, do I force myself to stay back on the saddle or figure out how to move it even further forward? Is there a "cost" at being this (or too) far forward? I guess moving the cleats are contributors to this - but do you think it is the ssue?

Thanks

Al Truscott

IMO, the bottom line is you need to get refitted. For TT riding, the only fixed point is the bottom bracket. All,other elements are variable, change one and all the others are affected. EG, crank length, cleat placement, thickness of shoe bed, seat tube angle, sadlle fore/aft and tilt, elbow/armrest interface, stack height, extension angle and length, etc etc.

Unless you have endless patience and MacGuyver like skills, its probably best to go back for another fitting, to sort out where everything should else should be positioned given the changes you've made

Bruce Thompson

2x what Al said.  Get a new fit.  When doing so, you might want to consider titling the front of the saddle downward 1-3 degrees, so it is actually isn't level. I have mine at 3 degrees and it is much more comfortable than a completely level saddle when in aero position. 

harrast

Jim, just saw your post and wanted to pass along a thought. I'm not a doc, but I've been through foot numbness, which can progress into burning and/or Morton's Neuroma. One of the probable causes is shoes that are to narrow squeezing the metatarsals (I did take anatomy) and impinging on a nerve causing numbness in the ball of the foot and between some of the middle toes. Women have a high incidence of Morton's which is attributed to wearing narrow high-heel shoes that squeeze the metatarsals. I have found that most cycling shoes tend to be narrow and rigid. My old cycling shoes make my foot go numb. If you are having numbness in the ball of your foot, you may want to pick up and inexpensive pair of cycling shoes in a wide width. I bought a pair on Amazon for about $100 recently. This probably won't have an immediate effect, but a wider shoe may solve the numbness issue over time. Hope this helps.

jsumara

Thanks Al and Bruce .. Its funny how obvious something is when someone else states it .... in this case, its a bit of a "duh" moment especially since I've made significant changes to 2 of the 3 key "Fit" areas, While I do like to tinker with the bike some, this is an area that is best served by a professional.

jsumara

Steve, I've been dealing with the numbness issue for a couple of years now. Its more of an inconvenience at this point - cold weather and over 3 hour rides is when it seems worse -  so that is why I've been trying to address it now. I'm not interested in dealing with any long term issues like Morton's.

The first thing I tried was that I took an old pair of cycling shoes and slit the side to allow my small toe to slide out and not squeeze my foot and that helped some but I lost some of the shoe stiffness integrity and I did not like my toe hanging out. Maybe I could put some duct tape on the shoe inside to create an extension of the shoe material. 

After I read that some people get numbness relief by moving the cleat as far back as possible - in effect, moving pedal spindle off the ball of the foot and more under the foot's arch. That and a blog post I read by Joe Friel on moving the location of the cleat, This post by Joe is pretty interesting .. he says that history is the only reason we put the pedal spindle under ball of the foot and that moving the cleat back might be better for the Triathlete.  Here is the link:

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html

At first I tried moving the cleat back with the standard cleat adjustments that are available and it simply was not far enough. So, that is why I made some more dramatic adjustments to the cleat itself. I did not want to drill new holes in the shoe bottom as this could compromise the shoe integrity so I drilled holes in the cleat and that allowed me to attach them a bit further back. Based on what Joe writes, they could still go further back

Anyway, as you can see, I'm sill on this mission. If you have any other ideas or know of a shoe that is for wide feet, let me know. So far, the only shoe I've found that seems to come a bit wide is Shimano. I guess I could have a pair made for me but I'm not at that point .. yet

jaleslie

I had a lot of toe numbness (left foot only) with my first road shoes, which were inexpensive Shimano.  I tried loosening straps, moved cleats all the way back, but nothing helped until I got a pair of >$200 Specialized road shoes with a wider toe box,carbon sole.  That fixed it immediately and it has never been an issue since.  I believe it's compression of nerves or something between the metatarsal heads.  I will use these shoes until they fall apart!

Both the guy who did my initial TT bike fit (Retul) and Todd with TTbikefit who recently re-fit me on-line with some minor tweaks, recommended cleats all the way back for triathletes.  

I'll bet your main issue is the wide foot/compression issue.  I had good results with the specialized, but that's just an n=1 and I'm sure there are others that are wider, etc.  

As far as the saddle/sitting position, I don't know why it would matter where on your body or on the seat you sit....as long as you're not getting sores/numbness (beyond the usual that we all have at times), can generate power, are aero, it seems to me it doesn't matter.  Some people sit farther back on a particular saddle than others....whatever works for you.  I know with the ISM Adamo saddles that they are designed to have one sitting on the nose(s) in the aero position.  I feel best on mine when I'm way out front, which puts me right on my ishial tuberosities and opens up my hip angle a little.  

My $0.02!

Brad Marcus

X2 what Jeff said regarding shoes. I was having numbness and metatarsal pain and went to LG tri shoes this year that have a very large toe box and this seemed to make a difference. My fitter also went almost all the way back on the cleats for my tri bike fit.

As for the saddle, I also have an Adamo. The way I sit on my trainer and on the road vary GREATLY! I sit much more forward on the road and can't seem to get comfortable that way on the trainer. Nor can I tolerate aero very long at all in trainer. The pressure points for me are completely different as far as I'm concerned.

jsumara

Completed the Retul Bike Fit (or re-fit) and there were a few changes. Moved the seat down a few millimeters and changed the seat angle down slightly. The fitter was not wild about my hack job on the shoe cleats so they were replaced with new ones. Another change was to move the cleats such that my feet moved out from the bike frame. Apparently my pedal action was not directly vertical -- it was more of a curve.

As for the numbness, he noticed that I did not press evenly with my right foot (the one that gets numb). I pressed more from the little toe in. He taped some flat shims under the inner shoe sole ... towards the outside (little toe side) starting at the ball of the foot. This lifted that part of my foot.  I can tell that the foot pressure is better distributed but the numbness did not go away - its actually worse. Adding the shims lifted my foot inside my shoe created more of tightness across the instep and that is probably the cause of the numbness. 

I need to create more room in my shoes ... maybe a small cut along the top will help or see if Brad's suggestion for LG Tri Shoes will work for me.

John Schneider

Hi Jim:
When I got fitted he put some inserts inside the shoe and it was too tight for me as well. Then he took some yellow shims (don't know what they're called) and inserted them between the cleat and the shoe bottom to create the same angle.
This was muy bueno as I could wiggle my toes again.
Regards, John S.

jsumara

@John Great idea.  I was trying to "stretch" the shoe some but I don't think that works .. I can easily move those yellow flat shim under the cleat and give my foot a little more room. Thanks.

mrslice

Posted By Jim Sumara on 29 Apr 2014 09:52 AM


Steve, I've been dealing with the numbness issue for a couple of years now. Its more of an inconvenience at this point - cold weather and over 3 hour rides is when it seems worse -  so that is why I've been trying to address it now. I'm not interested in dealing with any long term issues like Morton's.

The first thing I tried was that I took an old pair of cycling shoes and slit the side to allow my small toe to slide out and not squeeze my foot and that helped some but I lost some of the shoe stiffness integrity and I did not like my toe hanging out. Maybe I could put some duct tape on the shoe inside to create an extension of the shoe material. 

After I read that some people get numbness relief by moving the cleat as far back as possible - in effect, moving pedal spindle off the ball of the foot and more under the foot's arch. That and a blog post I read by Joe Friel on moving the location of the cleat, This post by Joe is pretty interesting .. he says that history is the only reason we put the pedal spindle under ball of the foot and that moving the cleat back might be better for the Triathlete.  Here is the link:

http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2007/01/cleat-position.html

At first I tried moving the cleat back with the standard cleat adjustments that are available and it simply was not far enough. So, that is why I made some more dramatic adjustments to the cleat itself. I did not want to drill new holes in the shoe bottom as this could compromise the shoe integrity so I drilled holes in the cleat and that allowed me to attach them a bit further back. Based on what Joe writes, they could still go further back

Anyway, as you can see, I'm sill on this mission. If you have any other ideas or know of a shoe that is for wide feet, let me know. So far, the only shoe I've found that seems to come a bit wide is Shimano. I guess I could have a pair made for me but I'm not at that point .. yet

Thanks for sharing the article.  Very interesting read. I have experienced big toe numbness, that went away with new shoes.  Bike shoes do have a shelf life like everything else.  That said, I'm going to try moving the position back towards the heel too.