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Debbie Williams AZ MACRO thread

Since I'm not eating dairy, I don't need a side of cheese with my WHINE... So here it goes...  I am a dedicated Middle Aged 50+ Back of the Packer.  I am determined and I am NOT a quitter.  I'd like to think I have an open mind the figure out this IM thing.  My Louisville 2012 swim was extremely slow @ 2:03 - Jan/Feb this year I worked with a swim coach on technique determined to "fix" whatever is wrong with my swim & now have a "new" stroke.  Swim coach is also Masters Coach of a group I swim with on Sundays... Over the past months distances have increased and "rest" between sets has decreased.  I am able to keep up with the planned swim workouts (which isn't the case with running - but that's a whole different discussion!!!) - yet, my times stay the same or actually are getting SLOWER... And for the most part I don't feel like I am tired when I swim. I download Garmin Swim data and am consistent swim after swim... even the T - X swims - while I THINK I am swimming faster - I must be flailing my arms more because my 100 times aren't any different.  I seem to have one speed.  Weekly I do 2 swims on my own plus Sunday Masters or 3 swims & Sunday Masters.

For example, Tuesday 5/13 I did 200yd warm up @ 2:21/100 then 1200 @ 2:19/100 and 1300 @ 2:22/100 - broken out as 200 warm up, 4X300 20 sec rest in between - then 2X400 30 sec rest in between then a 500... (some of the days are swapped around due to EXTREME winds - like 30-40 MPH winds!)

On 3/12 I swam a 500 @ 2:04/100 pace that was first set in practice - a lot further back than that there's more rest between sets and shorter sets and my 100s are faster...

So today was RR swim for BSLT 70.3 - 100 wu and then the 2200 in 55:48  @2:32/100  - in a 25yd pool - I don't know how to do flip turns - all touch & go.  I did not stop.  Still pool as nobody else was there.  I thought I was swimming faster than that - I was thinking it would be 45-48.  I was focusing on arm extension, keeping my head down/small turn to side to breath (I have a bad habit of looking up when I breath), elbows up, pull down beyond hips/feel the water... Now I am really concerned!!  I've done the same distance (in 2012) FASTER doing part breast stroke & part free!!!

Masters swim coach has offered to coach me $$ to help find some "speed" - but before going off and adding a side coached element into an already designed training plan - I am seeking some input from EN coaches.   What kind of sets should I be inserting into my swimming to get faster?

WHAT can I add - WHAT can I do to go faster?!?!?  I feel like I have the endurance base.  Realistically I'd be just fine with 1:45 in L'ville which is 2:45/100 pace anything faster than that would be amazing - that's assuming there's no current because you can't count on the assist (wasn't any current in 2012, there was current in 2013) - ok today's swim would fall into that timeframe assuming that I could maintain the pace for another 2200...  Yeah, I know Louisville if you're at the front of the swim line you get oodles of time to do the swim - but I don't WANT to have to use oodles of time to swim!! I am gonna need that "oodles of time" for the run.

Or - should I just shut up and go SWIM.   Or is it patience Grasshopper??  It will come. I know the swim is a small portion of the day and the minutes lost on the swim are small compared to what you could "lose" on the bike or run...

Thanks for any input you might be able to provide!!  Debbie Williams

Comments

  • Hi Debbie,

    Notes for you:

    • Please go to the Swimming section of the Wiki, download and review the Swim Clinic ebook. This will give you a good primer on the challenges of adult onset swimming, as well as a series to drills to address the basic technique elements.
    • Next, armed with this knowledge, book a technique lesson with that masters coach. Assess his/her ability like this: if they are talking alot about fixing body position, getting horizontal on the water, stuff like that = good. Talking about arms, pulling, grabbing more water = bad. In my experience, masters coaches can go either way depending on how they themselves came up as swimmers. 
    • If coach = good, both more technique sessions with them.
    • If coach = bad, use the swim ebook as your primary tool and/or find another technique resource. 
    • Finally, please see the workouts I've written for you and are included in your training plan. These are very much "make me faster by forcing me to swim faster" workouts. 

    Good luck!

     

  • Hmmm - I was looking for a little more guidance than this... Yes, I've read Swim Clinic book and about 100 other swim type books (and watched videos) on the internet - Masters Swim Coach says STOP looking at all that stuff!! And I agree - they all say something a little different - and when you really don't know exactly what you're doing right (or wrong) ARE quite confusing! I read that swimming is 30% physical & 70% technique... either my physical is waaaaaay off and/or I have no technique.

    Master Swim Coach - that I've taken lessons with & does our Sunday masters group - is geared towards adult swimmer (although he does coach a summer league 5-18yo team) and most in our group are triathletes maybe even as many as half are IM - freestyle is the focus - have luxury of swimming in 50m pool. We have anywhere from 20-30 in 8 lanes - really varies week to week who's there - with a wide range of abilities - we all generally do the same workout - just distance adjusted per lane speed - it's good group. At 50, I am usually the oldest female - another tri friend of mine (70+) broke her collarbone so she's out right now. On Sunday we usually swim pretty close to 3000m variety of swim, arms, legs & other misc fast/slow/tread water middle of pool for 30sec, swim, Tarzan arms, these weighted barrels that you "lift" with cables/waist strap - it's at the University of Arizona pool... The town I live also has a master swim group - this coach REQUIRES everyone to swim all strokes - regardless what you're training for (I don't swim with them).

    The response I was looking for was something along the lines of - so, you're working with a swim coach - substitute EN **blank** workout with coached session - always make sure to get in EN **blank** workout - for example I AM JUST MAKING UP THIS EXAMPLE - substitute mid week swim approx 2600 yds with coached session - but always make sure you weekly complete one swim session of no less than 3000 yards... I am only making up this example - because I don't know which session is the critical one & which one is the one that's best to sub out for something else...

    Since EN already HAS written plans for IM training - I'd hope a swim coach wouldn't need to re-write what's already been tried/tested/used (and Geoff doesn't want to recreate the wheel anyway!!) - rather, augment or sub in/out a specialized workout. I DO have access to an Endless Pool at TriSports. com retail store (pretty convenient) and swim coach has arrangements with TriSports to use this pool.

    Comments appreciated.

    THX! Debbie

  • Posted By Debbie Williams on 20 May 2014 02:26 PM


    Hmmm - I was looking for a little more guidance than this... Yes, I've read Swim Clinic book and about 100 other swim type books (and watched videos) on the internet - Masters Swim Coach says STOP looking at all that stuff!! And I agree - they all say something a little different - and when you really don't know exactly what you're doing right (or wrong) ARE quite confusing! I read that swimming is 30% physical & 70% technique... either my physical is waaaaaay off and/or I have no technique.



    Master Swim Coach - that I've taken lessons with & does our Sunday masters group - is geared towards adult swimmer (although he does coach a summer league 5-18yo team) and most in our group are triathletes maybe even as many as half are IM - freestyle is the focus - have luxury of swimming in 50m pool. We have anywhere from 20-30 in 8 lanes - really varies week to week who's there - with a wide range of abilities - we all generally do the same workout - just distance adjusted per lane speed - it's good group. At 50, I am usually the oldest female - another tri friend of mine (70+) broke her collarbone so she's out right now. On Sunday we usually swim pretty close to 3000m variety of swim, arms, legs & other misc fast/slow/tread water middle of pool for 30sec, swim, Tarzan arms, these weighted barrels that you "lift" with cables/waist strap - it's at the University of Arizona pool... The town I live also has a master swim group - this coach REQUIRES everyone to swim all strokes - regardless what you're training for (I don't swim with them).



    The response I was looking for was something along the lines of - so, you're working with a swim coach - substitute EN **blank** workout with coached session - always make sure to get in EN **blank** workout - for example I AM JUST MAKING UP THIS EXAMPLE - substitute mid week swim approx 2600 yds with coached session - but always make sure you weekly complete one swim session of no less than 3000 yards... I am only making up this example - because I don't know which session is the critical one & which one is the one that's best to sub out for something else...



    Since EN already HAS written plans for IM training - I'd hope a swim coach wouldn't need to re-write what's already been tried/tested/used (and Geoff doesn't want to recreate the wheel anyway!!) - rather, augment or sub in/out a specialized workout. I DO have access to an Endless Pool at TriSports. com retail store (pretty convenient) and swim coach has arrangements with TriSports to use this pool.



    Comments appreciated.



    THX! Debbie

    Hi Debbie,

    Ok, sorry for the miscommunication. My point is that I'm 95% sure that your swimming issues are related to technique first, fitness second. So you need to technique help. But what I was describing was a method of determining if your masters coach (1) understood that you needed technique help and (2) was capable of determining what help you need. 

    This is important because master coaches are almost always former competitive swimmers (me). We learned good swimming technique, the basics, when we were very, very young. Then, by about age 12 or so, swim training becomes very much about fitness and raw application of power to the water. You then swim competitively for another 10yrs, through college and ^this^ is you understand and coach swimming -- you have adult swimmers do all of the stuff you did back in day when swimming, for you, was about fitness and strength. 

    But the masters coach who is working with adult onset swimmers needs to break out of this box and realize he needs to treat his swimmers like 8yo's  and teach them the fundamentals of swimming technique. This means proper body position and balance first, pulling, kicking, and fitness-type workouts a distant second. 

    You're asking me for a workout prescription to make you a faster swimmer. I'm saying that's not what you need. You need to book 1:1 time with a quality technique coach, with underwater video, and determine a path to improve your swimming form, while building fitness parallel to that. 

    Let me know if I'm getting closer 

  • Thanks Rich - closer reply - I think Geoff is more of the technique direction - the first couple lessons I had with him were about catch up arm stroke, pulling all the way through the stroke, keeping my head DOWN (I like to look up/forward), breathing to the side, hips... (all are real basic swimming - I suppose I never really learned freesyle as a kid - always preferred breast stroke).

    So the rest of the question is - OK so working with him 1:1 - add these sessions to whatever I'm already doing? sub in for part of workout? which swim workout is the most important of the week? (I know they are all important!!) From what I did with him earlier in the year - after lesson, he'd give me some workouts to do that were specific to what we'd worked on - this was back in Jan/Feb & my "assignments" were like in the 1500 range... much improvement in fitness since then.

    Comments on using Endless Pool sessions for "speed" workout?

    Ideally I'd like to get this all in place beginning of June (like next week!) coordinating EN workouts with working with swim coach.

    THX!

    Debbie

  • Posted By Debbie Williams on 21 May 2014 02:46 PM


    Thanks Rich - closer reply - I think Geoff is more of the technique direction - the first couple lessons I had with him were about catch up arm stroke, pulling all the way through the stroke, keeping my head DOWN (I like to look up/forward), breathing to the side, hips... (all are real basic swimming - I suppose I never really learned freesyle as a kid - always preferred breast stroke).



    So the rest of the question is - OK so working with him 1:1 - add these sessions to whatever I'm already doing? sub in for part of workout? which swim workout is the most important of the week? (I know they are all important!!) My overall guidance is that you should be swimming 3x/wk. But I can't blanket say "yes, add a 4th technique focused swim to your week, with this coach," because I have no idea what the logistics and $$$ cost of that are. Make sense? From what I did with him earlier in the year - after lesson, he'd give me some workouts to do that were specific to what we'd worked on - this was back in Jan/Feb & my "assignments" were like in the 1500 range... much improvement in fitness since then. I recommend you go this route:
    • He does a 1:1 technique session with you and prescribes for you a set of drills that you'll do until your next appointment with him. Say this set is about 600-800m.
    • Do ^this^ set on the front end of the EN workout in your training plan -- after the warmup and before the mainset. 
    • Depending on the total time per session that you have available to you, you may need to shorten some of the EN workout? If that's the case, shorten the easier swimming and keep the harder/faster stuff. 

    Comments on using Endless Pool sessions for "speed" workout? I'm always all about the least costly (time, admin, and $$-wise) to accomplish something. IMO, an Endless Pool session would be pretty costly on all fronts vs getting more value out of the stuff you're already doing?



    Ideally I'd like to get this all in place beginning of June (like next week!) coordinating EN workouts with working with swim coach.



    THX!



    Debbie

  • Rich - looking for some direction here - just added Buffalo Springs Lake TX 70.3 race report - it was a very long, hot & windy day.  Time splits are what they are - but.... I'm not necessarily sure they're completely reflective of where I am (or maybe they are & I am in complete denial!!)  My finish time was 9:05.  That 70.3 time does NOT bode well for an IM.

    Swim was slower than 2012 by a couple minutes - this was a wet suit swim...

    Bike - stooooopid windy!!  Ok there was some tailwind, too - crosswinds.  Finished the bike with more in the tank.  This year there was one additional "significant" hill on the course - I would guess it added 10 minutes (vs only having 7 hills in 2012)... I recall having to work harder on the climbs in 2012 with a 39X28 (road bike) vs the 39X27 (tri bike) that I had this year.  I did stay in aero position nearly every bit of time that it was possible - and I felt really good on the tri bike.  For the remainder of IMLouisville training I am going to put my 12X25 cassette on (switch back to the 12X27 for IM)... the 12X27 cassette is pretty closely spaced the fixed cogs are 21 24 27...

    Run - I am an admitted slow runner.  I am getting better.  I can almost consistently do a run averaging under 15 min miles.  My longest run to date (before BSLT) was 6.67 miles - so the half marathon distance was a big jump up.  On Sunday I thought I executed the first 9+ miles pretty well - fatigue & heat set in - I DID keep with the run/walk (vs just walking) to the finish.  I would anticipate that leading into IM Louisville that I'd have maybe 4 runs 13-15 miles?  I haven't looked ahead in the training plan.  What I would like to be able to execute for Louisville is 4 run/1 walk for at least the first loop - and then the second loop - maybe?? maintain 4/1 or at worst 2run/2walk... 

    I am looking for expertise feed back & suggestions on any tweaks to get "there" - IM Louisville is a finish day - but I can't plan for a 17H finish - I have to plan for a less than 17H finish.  

    RACE DAY - I do plan on getting to the swim line God-forsaken early & get in the water maybe in first 15 minutes... With BSLT swim - unless there's some divine intervention between now & Aug 24, I am probably going to swim about 2H.  

    Bike realistically average 15MPH for 112 miles (7:30).  In AZ have the opportunity to ride too many miles in the heat.  2X/week I am doing 1H Computrainer class (power improvement guarantee), followed by 45 min run - Saturday is long bike.  Also will ride Computrainer IMLou course at least once.

    Run 6:30 - 6:45 this is everyone's wild card. I just don't know if I realistically can do the run faster than that.  In 2012 somewhere along the way I got a super stiff neck (in ultramarathon cycling we call it Shermer neck) and was listing to the side - as in I couldn't walk standing straight up... walked the whole second loop listing... (I ran a block/walked a block on the first loop) took 6:45 for the run.

    Any comments - feed back - suggestions are much appreciated!!

    Debbie Williams in AZ


  • Posted By Debbie Williams on 02 Jul 2014 02:40 PM

    Rich - looking for some direction here - just added Buffalo Springs Lake TX 70.3 race report - it was a very long, hot & windy day.  Time splits are what they are - but.... I'm not necessarily sure they're completely reflective of where I am (or maybe they are & I am in complete denial!!)  My finish time was 9:05.  That 70.3 time does NOT bode well for an IM.

    Swim was slower than 2012 by a couple minutes - this was a wet suit swim...

    Bike - stooooopid windy!!  Ok there was some tailwind, too - crosswinds.  Finished the bike with more in the tank.  This year there was one additional "significant" hill on the course - I would guess it added 10 minutes (vs only having 7 hills in 2012)... I recall having to work harder on the climbs in 2012 with a 39X28 (road bike) vs the 39X27 (tri bike) that I had this year.  I did stay in aero position nearly every bit of time that it was possible - and I felt really good on the tri bike.  For the remainder of IMLouisville training I am going to put my 12X25 cassette on (switch back to the 12X27 for IM)... the 12X27 cassette is pretty closely spaced the fixed cogs are 21 24 27...

    Run - I am an admitted slow runner.  I am getting better.  I can almost consistently do a run averaging under 15 min miles.  My longest run to date (before BSLT) was 6.67 miles - so the half marathon distance was a big jump up.  On Sunday I thought I executed the first 9+ miles pretty well - fatigue & heat set in - I DID keep with the run/walk (vs just walking) to the finish.  I would anticipate that leading into IM Louisville that I'd have maybe 4 runs 13-15 miles?  I haven't looked ahead in the training plan.  What I would like to be able to execute for Louisville is 4 run/1 walk for at least the first loop - and then the second loop - maybe?? maintain 4/1 or at worst 2run/2walk... 

    I am looking for expertise feed back & suggestions on any tweaks to get "there" - IM Louisville is a finish day - but I can't plan for a 17H finish - I have to plan for a less than 17H finish.  

    RACE DAY - I do plan on getting to the swim line God-forsaken early & get in the water maybe in first 15 minutes... With BSLT swim - unless there's some divine intervention between now & Aug 24, I am probably going to swim about 2H.  

    Bike realistically average 15MPH for 112 miles (7:30).  In AZ have the opportunity to ride too many miles in the heat.  2X/week I am doing 1H Computrainer class (power improvement guarantee), followed by 45 min run - Saturday is long bike.  Also will ride Computrainer IMLou course at least once.

    Run 6:30 - 6:45 this is everyone's wild card. I just don't know if I realistically can do the run faster than that.  In 2012 somewhere along the way I got a super stiff neck (in ultramarathon cycling we call it Shermer neck) and was listing to the side - as in I couldn't walk standing straight up... walked the whole second loop listing... (I ran a block/walked a block on the first loop) took 6:45 for the run.

    Any comments - feed back - suggestions are much appreciated!!

    Debbie Williams in AZ

    Hey Deb,

    Thanks for the detail. At the end of the day, we need to get you off the bike before the cutoff. After that, you'll be good, I promise. My notes:

    • Your TX HIM is a much more difficult bike course than IMLou so not realistic to draw comparisons. (1) IMLou is typically not a very windy course. And if it is, there are a good number of turns = the wind is pretty much always changing for you. (2) It's not particularly hilly. Or rather, there are hills, by nothing especially epic. It's "just a big ride," nothing you haven't see before.
    • Not sure what the TX run course is like but IMLou is flat, flat, flat. Zero hills, seriously. 
    • The IMLou time trial start is very friendly for beginners, making this a popular race for swim-challenged swimmers. 
    • You'll be heat adapted, in spades. This will be a huge advantage for you on race day. That said, there is no reason for you to purposely seek out training in the heat until 2-3wks out from the race. So while I know it's difficult for you avoid training in the heat, you shouldn't go to the other extremely and purposely train in the middle, hottest part of the day, etc. 
    • Finally, you still have a good bit of quality training between now and your race. IOW, the fitness you had in TX is not the fitness you'll have at IMLou. And you don't necessarily "need" to make any tweaks in the plan. Just follow it, take advantage of the Race Execution stuff that we're sending you, and you'll be good!
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