desutherland

Douglas Sutherland

Thank you for the video. I am glad I have experienced in this corner. WIll be my first IM. I would like to have a respectable experience if at all possible.

Curious your thoughts about working the EN training plan into any normal busy lifestyle in general; if one day goes downhill, how to adjust the plan accordingly (i.e. let that work-out drop out entirely, or fit in on a day off, etc). Mondays tend to be bad for me - I am writing this email at 330am - and the day I am most likely to drop.

I just previewed the intermediate HIM plan, there was no day off - is that common in the EN plans?

I know it is anethema around endurance athletes, but I love to lift weights in the old school manner - squat, bench, etc. Does the EN plan have any comment on resistance training?

Lastly, the Baltimore half is poorly placed, I agree. Background: I just came back from a 20 yr college reunion where I found that 90% of my fraternity brothers are incredibly, morbidly obese. Three asked me to help, one wanted to run that race. If I bail, it would be bad for humanity (these guys used to be serious football players, now they look like potential winners for a biggest loser contest). I am going to bet our race time will push 3 hours - I would probably be walk/jogging the thing.  Could I use that type of "performance" to kick of a taper?

DS

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 22 Jul 2014 06:23 AM

Thank you for the video. I am glad I have experienced in this corner. WIll be my first IM. I would like to have a respectable experience if at all possible. Welcome aboard!

Curious your thoughts about working the EN training plan into any normal busy lifestyle in general; if one day goes downhill, how to adjust the plan accordingly (i.e. let that work-out drop out entirely, or fit in on a day off, etc). Mondays tend to be bad for me - I am writing this email at 330am - and the day I am most likely to drop. Notes:

• Priorities each week are, in order, (1) long run, (2) long ride, (3) interval run, (4) interval bike. 
• Within ^this^ guidance, swim minimum of 2x/wk (3 is better), ride 2x (3x is better) and run 3x (4-5x is better)
• Within ^this^ guidance, maintaining your running frequency is most important. When in doubt, just go for "a" run of 20-40', whatever you can fit in.
• Within each week, just do the best you can. If you miss a workout...it's gone, forget about it, don't try to make it up. 

I just previewed the intermediate HIM plan, there was no day off - is that common in the EN plans? Yes. You'll find the schedule works, as we've put a lot of thought into how Monday works with Tues works with Wed, etc. That said, if you need to take a day off, see the priorities in those bullets above. 

I know it is anethema around endurance athletes, but I love to lift weights in the old school manner - squat, bench, etc. Does the EN plan have any comment on resistance training? Old school leg work...yes...complete waste of time, from the perspective of making you a better endurance athlete. And 100% counterproductive if done within the context of Ironman training, as those sessions absolutely will compromise the Ironman-specific workouts that you're here to do. That said, we all do this sport and other physical activities for a variety of reasons. Sounds like you have your reasons. I'm just saying that, as the triathlon coach you've asked to train you for an Ironman, those activities are pretty much counter to the Ironman goal you're trying to achieve, particularly if you extend them deep into your Ironman season when we really, really turn up the dial on your training. 

Lastly, the Baltimore half is poorly placed, I agree. Background: I just came back from a 20 yr college reunion where I found that 90% of my fraternity brothers are incredibly, morbidly obese. Three asked me to help, one wanted to run that race. If I bail, it would be bad for humanity (these guys used to be serious football players, now they look like potential winners for a biggest loser contest). I am going to bet our race time will push 3 hours - I would probably be walk/jogging the thing.  Could I use that type of "performance" to kick of a taper? While I applaud what you're trying to do, maybe counter by asking them how many of them are doing an Ironman the next weekend. No matter how you slice it, 3hrs on your feet, running, walking, is just a not a good idea less than week before an Ironman you've been training months and months for. Maybe offer to jump in with them/him in the last ~4-5 miles and support them that way?

DS

Douglas Sutherland

While on long run today (9:22 pace x 9 miles), was wondering how does one account for elevation change when trying to keep a pace? Same goes for bike. Living in the PNW, there are no flat roads!

How often should one update the pace and power data for run and bike, respectively? Is there a fn at EN to track one's progress over time?

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 25 Jul 2014 12:02 AM


While on long run today (9:22 pace x 9 miles), was wondering how does one account for elevation change when trying to keep a pace? Same goes for bike. Living in the PNW, there are no flat roads!  Go by HR and RPE on the hills. Over time you'll develop pace expectations for hills that you do regularly and you can use that as well. 



How often should one update the pace and power data for run and bike, respectively? Is there a fn at EN to track one's progress over time? We have tests schedule regularly in our training plans. You'll use those tests to update your training zones. I don't believe we have a formal historical tracking feature, if that's what you're looking for. Most people keep track of that separately via a variety of tools. 

Douglas Sutherland

On my Saturday ride I noticed my bike Z3 - which I understand to be my proposed HIM pace - had my HR up into the 160s within 2 minutes. That set followed Z4 interval x 3, but the Z3s were only 10 minute long. I am doubtful I could hold that HR for ~ 3 hours. Regardless of my FTP (next measured tomorrow BTW), should my calculated Z3 pace generate a specific target HR? I read somewhere the HR goal is 130-145 (some number - age = endurance HR target).

Sunday was a beautiful day, I opted to take the bike outside for 2 hours. Riding near my house is most analogous to hill repeats basically; maintaining a sustained Z3 pace is simply not possible. So Im curious, for optimal race results, would it have been better to do my ABP ride on a trainer where I can control the watts? 

Also, can't find it easily: what is a "T pace -2" for the swim?

Thanks,

DS

Douglas Sutherland

One more: What is a race rehearsal? Your TSR suggested it was week 15, but it looks like I have very close to a HIM this saturday (week 8).

DS

Douglas Sutherland

FTP bumped from 246 to 270, FTP/Kg is now 3 bc Im down 4 lbs.

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 28 Jul 2014 10:14 PM

On my Saturday ride I noticed my bike Z3 - which I understand to be my proposed HIM pace - had my HR up into the 160s within 2 minutes. That set followed Z4 interval x 3, but the Z3s were only 10 minute long. I am doubtful I could hold that HR for ~ 3 hours. Regardless of my FTP (next measured tomorrow BTW), should my calculated Z3 pace generate a specific target HR? I read somewhere the HR goal is 130-145 (some number - age = endurance HR target).

See the bike testing information on this page. The short answer is that if you have power on the bike, power should be your primary metric, especially for intervals, HR is secondary/is just observed at your target wattage. Don't worry about getting in / not getting in the prescribe time/method of Z3 work. The Z4 intervals (again, use power vs HR) are more importantly 

Sunday was a beautiful day, I opted to take the bike outside for 2 hours. Riding near my house is most analogous to hill repeats basically; maintaining a sustained Z3 pace is simply not possible. So Im curious, for optimal race results, would it have been better to do my ABP ride on a trainer where I can control the watts? No. Do these rides outside if you can. And we're not looking for a sustained, even HR or power in these rides. We just want you to do a lot of "work," by whatever method works for you, given terrain, etc, so that you finish the ride with an IF of ~.80-85. Again, I'm assuming that you have power outside on the bike? 

Also, can't find it easily: what is a "T pace -2" for the swim? T-pace is your per 100m/y pace for a 1k time trial. Similar to FTP on the bike, but for the swim. Please read the Quick Start Guide here, you'll also see a link to this in the right sidebar of your Training Plan Page. 

Thanks,

DS

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 29 Jul 2014 08:51 AM

FTP bumped from 246 to 270, FTP/Kg is now 3 bc Im down 4 lbs.

Nice work! Is this indoors on a trainer or outdoors on your bike?

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 28 Jul 2014 10:26 PM


One more: What is a race rehearsal? Your TSR suggested it was week 15, but it looks like I have very close to a HIM this saturday (week 8).



DS

You can learn more about RRs here.

Sorry, I don't understand your question. Your TSR is below. Your first RR isn't for another 7-8 weeks? And I don't believe you've given me anything that indicated you were doing a half Ironman this weekend?

Douglas Sutherland

I load up week 8 of intermediate HIM this week. I am commenting on Saturday's prescription "big work out", 1 hour of swim, 3 hr of bike, 1 hour of run, thus the nearly HIM comment (getting to 5 hours would be awesome!). It has me off Friday and Sunday to rest, so I assume this is a race rehearsal. No?

Douglas Sutherland

Indoor. Did the sufferfest rubber glove test. 

Douglas Sutherland

I do not have a power meter on bike. I use a training program that calculates my power based on the linear resistance provided buy my trainer, is called Virtal power..  I haven't committed to a power meter yet.

Ds

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 29 Jul 2014 10:58 PM

I load up week 8 of intermediate HIM this week. I am commenting on Saturday's prescription "big work out", 1 hour of swim, 3 hr of bike, 1 hour of run, thus the nearly HIM comment (getting to 5 hours would be awesome!). It has me off Friday and Sunday to rest, so I assume this is a race rehearsal. No?

No, sorry, that's not a Race Rehearsal, that's a "Big Day," and you should have a note indicating that in your training plan somewhere? Please read this wiki post for additional detailed guidance on what we're trying to accomplish here.

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 29 Jul 2014 11:03 PM

I do not have a power meter on bike. I use a training program that calculates my power based on the linear resistance provided buy my trainer, is called Virtal power..  I haven't committed to a power meter yet.

Ds

Ok. Yeah, we are very familiar with Trainer Road.

Regarding your HR zones: what's happening, in my opinion, is a very common disconnect between indoor heart rate and outdoor HR. You determined your HR zones via an indoor test. That HR is often different from what you'll see outdoors at the same watts/effort, for a number of reasons. I recommend you do this:

• Continue to use TR for your weekday interval sessions. For these sessions, focus on the virtual watts and push these (watts are your primary target) and just observe HR and RPE at these watts. Specifically, note the RPE you feel at a Zone 2 and 3 heart rate and power.
• Then when you ride outside, observe what HR you see at that Zone 2 and 3 RPE. So when you dial in that Steady (Z2) or Mod-Hard (Z3) effort, observe what HR you're seeing at this RPE. Overtime you'll observe how HR and RPE interact and will be able to spot trends. 
• Long term, you may want to consider (1) getting an on-the-bike powermeter than you can train with outside and (2) doing an HR training zones test outdoors vs indoors. You should have one scheduled in Wk12 of you plan, I believe

Douglas Sutherland

Moving big day to Sunday, daughter's birthday today, so plan to rest today. Also, work got in the way of everything Thursday, so had to take that day off as well.

First 1 hour run was Friday with the new run zone goals. Was able to put together 3 x 7:15 min mile (Z 2), and when moved up to Z3 (6:50) bonked 3 times in 1.3 mile. Finished with a few true Z1 miles for total of 6 miles in 53 min. I am happy with the effort, much faster that I though possible. Question: with an improvement in zone goals, is it expected that I can perform at that speed right off, or will I need to build up to it? I am thinking in terms of weight lifting where we set lift goals that will result in "pushing to failure" every so often.

Thank you.
DS

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 02 Aug 2014 09:49 AM


Moving big day to Sunday, daughter's birthday today, so plan to rest today. Also, work got in the way of everything Thursday, so had to take that day off as well.



First 1 hour run was Friday with the new run zone goals. Was able to put together 3 x 7:15 min mile (Z 2), and when moved up to Z3 (6:50) bonked 3 times in 1.3 mile. Finished with a few true Z1 miles for total of 6 miles in 53 min. I am happy with the effort, much faster that I though possible. Question: with an improvement in zone goals, is it expected that I can perform at that speed right off, or will I need to build up to it? I am thinking in terms of weight lifting where we set lift goals that will result in "pushing to failure" every so often.



Thank you.

DS

What test did you use to determine your running zones? Are you talking a Z2, Z3 HR which yields a pace, or are you running to a Z2, Z3 pace and just observing HR?

Douglas Sutherland

I used 5K TT done last week, had to be done on treadmill. Ran full out the entire time, 19:20, ending HR was 184. On the run I referenced above, I didn't have access to a HR monitor, so tried to hit the pace targets for Z2 and Z3, not HR.

On my first Big Day yesterday, after 2600yd and 41 miles on bike, I could muster a 9:50 first mile, then averaged 8:30 x 5 thereafter. Felt pretty solid, like I could have run 13 at that pace.

So I think my goal for Austin is a 1:45 run, unless you tell me I can do better.

Douglas Sutherland

I see that the OS test is a half marathon. Patrick put me in the advanced OS based on Austin results. I am going to start this week - I feel fully recovered from Austin, zero soreness/issues and Im getting bored.

I have never done a full marathon before, which will occur at CDAIM this June. There is a nice run in Huntington Beach in February - half or full marathon - that I could make. I am curious your input on doing a full marathon 2/1/2015 instead of a half? If I were to do the full, does that change my OS work/TSR?

DS

Coach Rich

Posted By Doug Sutherland on 02 Nov 2014 07:49 AM

I see that the OS test is a half marathon. Patrick put me in the advanced OS based on Austin results. I am going to start this week - I feel fully recovered from Austin, zero soreness/issues and Im getting bored.

I have never done a full marathon before, which will occur at CDAIM this June. There is a nice run in Huntington Beach in February - half or full marathon - that I could make. I am curious your input on doing a full marathon 2/1/2015 instead of a half? If I were to do the full, does that change my OS work/TSR?

DS

Please read this: http://www.endurancenation.us/blog/training/marathons-and-triathlon-training/

Highly recommend you do a half marathon and not a full marathon. I plan on doing that HB half in Feb, if you're talking about Surf City?

Douglas Sutherland

Yes, surf city