The Halligan thinks its easier to run faster thread [cont.]

Chris G

 This is a LINK to the thread in the 3.0 Forum.  Think it should be continued...

 

If I am remembering correctly Daniels suggests that when you are feeling good it is fine to do an E pace run closer to M pace.  This would seem to be in line with my thoughts and lakerfans.  If you think about it running for less than an hour at less than M pace should not really do any damage to you.  That said it will be obvious when it is as RPE during the run and how it effects the next "quality" session should make it obvious.

 

dhalligan

I had no idea my little question would turn into such a discussion. FWIW, EP was fine for me as a brick workout this past Tuesday.
Patrick's suggestion of doing the strides early on was quite helpful.

Dave

Linda Patch

 Bit of a tangent here...Chris you mentioned a while back that you feel better running a little every day. I don't do it, but I agree with that. I know that frequency running works very well for me. When you do your "run everyday" run, not a workout, how long do you go for?

Chris G

 My "mental health" run is usually 5 miles but 4 if I am pressed for time and or I do not feel like starting out by running up the hill that is at the beginning of my fav 5 mile loop.

charris

Thanks for continuing this thread Chris G - great to read all these posts (and *concise* posts: mental note to self).

 

I've seen some folks politely disclaim their posts in the past, so let me do the same here - I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing.  I have a lot of respect for what you guys have to say (in fact Chris W's posts on ST are one of the reasons I'm here).  I'm just always trying to refine things in my head, and part of that is discussions with smart people.  I have, as the saying goes, "strong opinions loosely held".

 

To summarize my thoughts briefly(?):

-This thread started out as "it hurts/sucks to run at a slow pace".  I still think the best way to get better at running at a slower pace is to...run at that slower pace.  Why the hell would you want to get better at running slower?  Because, like it or not, that's about the pace we're going to run our IM.

-I don't think it's dangerous/damaging per se to run at slightly faster paces.

-I just don't think that it's going to do that much "extra" good and could compromise your ability to nail key workouts.  I agree that you don't just get specific adaptations at specific paces - but I think there are zones where you can maximize bang for buck - and the grey area between E and MP just doesn't seem high ROI.  (I may regret putting this bullet point in, but what the hell ).

-I think running running at faster than E pace can be part of the bigger problem of always "rounding up" that I find people sometimes do.  Bump up Easy pace, always shoot for the high end of the % range for intervals, do extra intervals, run at the vdot you want rather than the one you're at, etc.

-I'm not saying there is not some value in "mo bettah" - just that there is also risk, and we're not always good at judging risk.  Some people are good at listening to their bodies and can handle extra work just fine.  Some people aren't - and drive themselves into the ground as a result.

-I think that things that feel ok at a micro level (i.e. individual workouts, or weeks) can slowly sneak up on you on a macro level.

-I expect a good training plan (whether it's Daniels, EN, etc.) to be designed to bend but not break me - and that means following the plan fairly closely, not getting cute and then being patient.

-For me, and I think a lot of others, mo running is mo bettah - even Easy running.  A good way to be able to run mo (and still do your other key s/b/r workouts) is to run Easy.

 

Again - thanks for the thought provoking discussion.

Chris G

 Craig,

I pretty much almost totally actually agree with you...how is that for a qualification?

Have to keep in mind that this is the "thinking" time of year.  When it is A race prep time thinking is off the table.  Then I try to do what is on the schedule and stick to it.  I have raced best when I just ignore everything and follow the plan. Not even so much about the particular plan but having one and sticking to it. You will often read where I have written something like:

"you are not paid to think, R and P are paid to think, it is time to focus, just do the work and then reap the rewards"

Stuff like that.  I thought the discussion that came out of Dave's Q was really interesting.  As usual, when the actually really smart and knowledgeable guys like Chris W, Cramer etc start writing about a subject  I pay very close attention.  

I know for me that running in between M pace and E pace is not going to have any ill effect on the next days workout.  I also know that if I were to do all running at M pace or faster it would be a disaster.  I did one of my easy 5 mile loops entirely on feel with my garmin turned around backward on Monday as kind of an experiment with this thread in mind.  Kept the PE pretty much even.  I would have to look at the data to get the exact splits but they were in the range of 8:10, 7:30, 7:20, 7:10, 7:00.  The first mile is a bit skewed as I start that loop with a pretty big hill and tend to just jog up it and then start running at the top.  That how is about I would run that run these days if I had no watch on.  Would that run be better for me if I did all the miles at 8:00?  Not sure how.  Daniels does not say that it would.  His stuff about not running "too fast" are for doing T pace runs or the true interval work.  That is where the "earn you right to train at faster paces by racing better" stuff comes from.  

charris

Since I'm always quick to quote Daniels when he agrees with my POV, I guess in fairness I should mention when he doesn't.  I was flipping through looking for something else the other day and found this little gem:

 

"With many of my slower runners, I find that some of their easy runs get so slow that technique suffers, which can lead to injury.  The answer might be running a little faster.  To prescribe a pace for this "faster than easy" run, I just use M, as shown in the VDOT tables."

 

Hmmm...good thing Daniels isn't always applicable to tri, eh? 

 

And I never did find the quote I was looking for...

DocHoffart

Chris and Craig,

Do either of you find a pace that is between LT and E pace? M pace is very uncomfortable for me. I cannot find a breathing pattern to work with and my body just doesn't like being at that pace. LT...much easier as is E.

V