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HIM Run Goal

My HIM runs to date have been less than stellar.  Improving, but not stellar, or even good.  My best HM time is 2:22, a 10:59 pace.  My best HIM run pace is 13:XX.  (Quassy)  I'd say the HIM was a little more hilly than the HM, but that is still a big gap to me.

As I'm trying to set realistic goals for my HIM run, I thought I'd ask the experts...  My RR run was a 10:53 pace for 5.5 miles (after a very hilly but appropriately paced .78IF bike) but it was pancake flat.  Honestly, I'd be thrilled with a 12:00 pace for Timberman, but past experience in HIMs indicates that is a lofty goal, yet other results would indicate it should be more than doable.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • I found this spreadsheet is giving you a pretty "educated" guess of your expected time/pace depending on your vDOT, 5k or even 10k race time.

    It's very accurate for me and all of my training buddies ...



    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1LFhH52RFZacTVqUGVDWnc2TzA/edit?usp=sharing

    So for your HM PR of 2:22 I'd use the vDOT=30 which would result in a possible HIM run in the range of 2:24 - 2:32

  • VDOT just under 30. MP is 11:06. That is your target. Just a bit slower than your recent RR. If you can't hit within 30"/mi of that, we need to diagnose what is going on. Probably overcooking the bike and/or riding too-high VI and not flattening the hilly courses.
  • Hey Kim, Can you share with us what happens during the HIM run? Are you slowing down as the run goes on? Are you just not able to push a faster pace the whole run? Do you crumble during the run and end up walking a large chunk? Whats going on during it?

  • Stefan- Thanks for the link! SO mathematically, my goal of under 2:40 is definitely reasonable... Perhaps just knowing that will help!

    Matt- High VI could be part of it, esp for last HIM (Quassy). Those hills were killer and most of the time required way more watts than my "plan" dicatated even just to stay upright leading to a high VI. I should def. be able to control that better @ Timberman.

    JB- Hmmm, hard to say. Just. Can't. Run. It is consistent from start to finish, but esp on hills. I think I need to do a flat HIM and see how that pans out for me..... Here is the Garmin data from the Quassy run (lots of walking up the hills, which I had planned for, but I also planned on the running part on the flats would be faster!)

    http://connect.garmin.com/modern/#activity/511981483

  • sorry, i cannot find the page.

    How are your training brick and RR workouts? Do you have similar issues? or are you fine? If you are fine during the bricks and RR's, maybe slow down your bike a little during the race by a few watts to set yourself up for the run
  • Kim-

    Your HIM target run pace should be your (real) marathon pace. I say your "real" marathon pace, in that if you'd just been doing a bunch of 5K training, you'd have an unrealistically high VDOT for MP. If you have a GREAT run, you might be a little faster than your MP...I assume this is the number that Matt Aaronson dug out for you. If not, I'd be curious to know how he chose one.

    To be blunt, though, you are going a bit slower than some folks. You don't mention your bike time, but if your total race time exceeds about 6 hours, perhaps it would be that much harder to hit MP in that you are just out there for longer. If that's the case, you might want to pad the MP just a little bit.
  • William- Yup, I'm def. slow! My HIM PR is about 7:37 (Rev3 Maine). My bike falls in the 3:30-4:00 range depending on the course. I'm shooting for 6:59:59 for Timberman, just trying to gauge how realistic it is by triangulating various race times, etc. I know I can swim 45-ish, bike 3:30ish (did 3:45 @ Timberman in 2011) so it it all up to the run... I think a lot of it might be in my head.

    I know my vdot is def stronger on 5ks vs. HM so 11:06 won't happen for sure. Timberman is a little hilly but not quite like Quassy.

    I guess I can just do my best.... image
  • OK, well I think for purposes of triangulation, you might want to look at something like halfway between MP and EP. I'd also see what Patrick has to say, in that he's going to have a lot more experience than the rest of us with questions like this.
  • Hey Kim
    Your run experiences resonate with me — I can't hold my 5 km derived Vdot estimated MP in a HIM run. Just like I can't hold my 5 km derived Vdot estimated EP for an IM run, even if those runs are dead flat.
    Here is what I do for a HIM run. I subtract 2 Vdot points from my 5 km derived Vdot and then use that revised Vdot to estimate my MP and use that for pacing my HIM run.
    So in your case, your Vdot is 30, so I would use a Vdot of 28 to estimate your MP.
    As a result, your target MP falls from 11:02 per mile to 11:39 per mile.
    The EN advice for IM runs suggest that some peeps need to subtract up to 3 Vdot points from their 5 km derived Vdot to get doable IM run pace targets.
    That said, some peeps have a higher Vdot as estimated from HMP/MP TTs vs 5 km TTs (I think Matt Aaronson is one?).
    This is the reason why EN suggests we do a HM at the end on the OS to get a handle on the relationship between our 5 km derived paces, and what we can actually run in HIM and IM.
    FWIW, I am currently doing the Run Durability/OS hack to address my lack of run durability and am becoming cautiously optimistic that my HIM and IM runs will be closer to paces estimated from 5 km TTs.
  • To be clear, I came up with the 30 VDOT based on a half-marathon time of 2:22

    Kim and I have communicated before re: running...Kim, you know what you need to do here...
  • Ooops.
    Sorry Kim and Matt, I misunderstood.
  • Peter - no need to apologize! I appreciate the input! All non-HIM runs would indicate a 12:00 pace is totally possible, even with your conservative estimates. I have def narrowed the gap between my HM and 5k vdots but adding that pesky 56 mile bike prior throws another layer of unknowns onto it, esp based on past performance.

    I was also remembering that all my past HIMs have been hot n sunny. Sunday is expected low 70s and maybe some rain (hopefully on the run) so that should def help!
  • Update- had a great race today! Report to come with full details but I hit all my goals. Run was 2:39 which was a 12:05 pace. (Goal was 2:40 so really close!). 40 min HIM PR and 59' course PR. 6:57:28

    I still have lots of improving to do on the run but this was about 14' faster than my last HIM run (although that one was harder)
  • AMAZING JOB KIM!!! So proud!!!! I cant wait to read the race report.
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