Nutrition Advise

fzaffino

Hi everyone,

Just wondering if anyone is currently or has been on a 'ketogenic' diet while competing in Ironman and Half Ironman races.  I have been researching this diet which consists of low-carb, moderate protein, and high fat intake.  The research indicates that this type of diet utilizes fat as fuel once the individual becomes 'fat-adapted', thereby, eliminating or drastically reducing the need for carbohydrate consumption, especially during exercise.  

I have never really had much success with gatorade/perform, power bars, gels packs etc during racing and this sounds like a possible alternative to race day fueling.  However, it would not just be for race day because we cannot make our body burn fat if we do not train it to burn the fat.  Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

thanks

frank

Patricia Rosen

wouldn't recommend it.

You don't want to get ketogenic which also makes you acidotic and will make you throw up!

I'd  recommend using a fluid source for on the bike such as EFS (BCAA and sugar and appropriate electrolytes) followed by recovery drink such as Ultragen afterwords. (go to First Endurance website for details...) or infinit nutrition as they can define what you need. 

why do the other drinks not work for you?  are you cramping? bonking? nauseated? gi upset?

 

 

 

Brenda Ross

Think both John Withrow and Keith Wick did this for IMMT. Reach out to them. Both performed really well.

fzaffino

@Patricia, thanks. It's not only the drinks but the gels and power bars. I continually 'bonk' during my races even though I am following all of the nutrition advice from EN. But, really, since I started doing marathons 14 years ago and the last 5 years of Ironman, they just don't work very well. No GI issues, it just doesn't seem to provide me with the fuel I need.

@Brenda, I will contact them. I'm doing a Rev3 Half Iron on Sept 14 and have been very low carb for a few weeks now and will test the waters during that race. I am using UCAN Superstarch for my workouts and it seems to work.

frank

Patricia Rosen

UCAN is basically food coloring and cornstarch. long story about them using this formula as it was the only way they could quote the literature.

a starch formula is a good idea. but the UCAN product can be hard on the stomach. I think you are talking about getting more protein or at least BCAA's in the diet which makes sense.... not really becoming ketogenic. best of luck in your mission and let me know what you find out. Ketogenic is what a person has when they are in diabetic ketoacidosis and are unable to metabolize sugars, so I'm not sure that we are talking about the same thing.

Mark Maurer

I got the Feed Zone cookbook a couple of years ago and have used recipes from it successfully for HIM and IM. I've tweaked the rice muffin recipe and eat them on the bike. They're about 200 calories each so I eat 1 every 45 minutes. That along with Skratch labs drink gives me about 400 calories an hour.  I do switch to gels for the last hour to get ready for the run and use gels or shot blocks on the run. I tried UCAN last year and did OK on the bike but suffered on the run during 2 HIMs. If you want to read about ketogenic diets go to Ben Greenfield fitness. He did a couple of IMs last year using that diet and he found it worked well on the bike but he had to start doing gels and other sugars on the run.

fzaffino

@Patricia, the UCAN formula has not had a deleterious effect on my stomach in my training...yet. Actually I am talking about getting moderate amounts of protein in my diet with low carbs and high-fat which could allow my body to produce ketones to use as fuel. According to the research, getting into a ketogenic state one has to drastically reduce the amount of carbs consumed to get into this state.

Nutritional ketosis is not ketoacidosis. Ketoacidosis occurs in Type I diabetics because their body thinks there is no glucose available and they switch to burning fat and ramp up their ketone production upward to 20 millimolars which can cause them to become very sick or even fall into a coma. These events would not be possible for non-diabetics.

@Mark...thanks for the tip on the Feed Zone cookbook, I'll check it out. I have been a listener and avid reader of Ben Greenfield for some time now and he has done well on this diet. Another elite age-group athlete also follows this diet, Sami Inkinen with great results.

Thanks for all the feedback, I will continue to research this topic and experiment on myself to see if it helps with my performance. Just like any diet and exercise program, individual results will vary and it may not work for me. What I do know is that I need to make changes to my nutrition because what I've been doing is not working well. It becomes very frustrating when you train for nine months for an IM and you fall short of your goals because of nutrition.

Patricia Rosen

everyone is a little different due to their body makeup. I have always been a staunch supporter of the First Endurance products so much so that I am now on their science board.... which doesn't mean I'm not interested in new stuff. What I found with UCAN is that it just sits in my stomach. I spoke to Robert Kunz about the formulation and EFS now has a better formulation with similar attributes and less the cement like quality. You might call Robert and ask him about it. He's very accessible.
I use a neverreach on the back of my bike. that way I can sip constantly. I use the EFS which has highest amount o electrolytes in it due to living in
Austin and needing more salt than the average anyway.
I use the EFS shots on the run and my last drink on the bike is the Ultragen due to it having high protein in easily digestible form as BCAA. Not recommended ordinarily but it gives me what I need with high protein prior to the most calorie demanding part of the course. Then I am free to use liquid EFS on the run without having to worry about it.

starting out I eat low glycemic foods (before the swim) to keep sugar stable and during bike I will down a few Cliff blocks (just chew them and leave them in your mouth done't swallow them) and will use a stinger waffle about an hour in. supplement with salt stick capsules and sport legs during run to replenish salt and lactate.
I am very familiar with ketoacidosis ( I have boards in Internal medicine, Emergency medicine and Toxicology). Unless you have an enormous glycogen storage and are relatively heavy it is not good to eat a ketogenic diet... can't imagine it would be helpful in any setting..... but I'm always interested n new ideas and thoughts. I never thought that using a calcium and magnesium lactate formulation would work for leg cramps but it does (Sport legs) so even old dogs can learn new tricks by the way, like I said everyone is different. I only weigh 115 pounds and burn up calories quick... higher glycemic foods on the bike AND the protein in a digestible form are necessary for me not to bonk.

Patricia Rosen

I am familiar with Ben Greenfield. sweet guy but he tends to go with FADS that may or may not have data to support them

fzaffino

Excellent advice Patricia. I thank you very much for your interest and input! I have never used First Endurance products, but I will take a look at them.
I am just looking for the right combination of nutrition that works for me and having all this information hopefully will lead me there. I believe it is what is preventing me from a breakthrough....we'll see.

fzaffino

BTW, true on Ben Greenfield. I've actually been reading Dr. Timothy Noakes research on this diet. He was a huge proponent of high card diets for endurance but changed his diet to the high-fat program after he was gaining weight. Then he really started to focus on this in his research. I find his take on diet interesting because he goes against everything we have been taught about nutrition and endurance.

David Leventhal

Here is a link to a thread that John Withrow started on the topic - there is some thoughtful information in it that might be helpful for you as you sharpen your thinking on the topic...

http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/15585/Default.aspx#178594

Patricia Rosen

very interesting.... I think I'll look at the book, racing weight....

It is always better to be a fat burner.....as we have more fat. as I get older I get more of it That makes sense... so ketones instead of lactic acid production...
I'm not sure how to manipulate this exactly....but I am now intrigued. I eat a lot of fish, some avocados but no red meat... rarely chicken and pork. and I do love mayonnaise, especially on french fries! Maybe that is where I'm getting my fat from. .... I think changing your racing zones would make a difference but that one link has the fellow in the same zones so diet would be the only variable that changes.

on the First Endurance stuff, the EFS contains amino acids. which is the easily absorbable protein.
Let us know what you find out

Keith Wick

I wouldn't necessarily call my diet low carb, high fat.....I just choose to eat as much non-processed food as possible. I'm also a vegetarian, so that means that I'm eating lots of fruits, vegetables, beans, salads and LOTS of nuts, almond butter, peanut butter and eggs. The only grains I eat are brown rice and quinoa.

My training diet only really comes into play on my long rides. On these, I've gone to the rice cakes in the feedzone portables cookbook. I also primarily use Skratch labs for hydration, but do throw in some Perform so it's not a shock to my system on race day. I haven't quite mastered the real food plan on the run yet. At IMMT on the bike, I basically ate 5 rice cakes for a total of about 950 calories over just short of 6 hours....plus calories from Skratch (340 cal) and Perform (around 875 cal--estimated). I made the change to real food because my stomach just didn't like all the sugar of gels & perform. I think what I did was good, but I didn't eat a last rice cake during hour 5 because I just didn't want to eat anymore---wasn't full, didn't have gut issues, just tired of eating. I think this helped me empty out my stomach to set me up for the run where I had no sloshing, no bonking, etc. with just some Perform, Coke, 2 gels (with caffeine) and 1 sleeve shot block (with caffeine).

fzaffino

I have read racing weight, although very informative, Fitzgerald advocates carbs for energy during training and racing. Like JW noted in his post, I am the same way, it hasn't work for me so that is why I am looking at the fat-adaptation road.
Patricia....if you want to venture down this road together, let me know, could always use a support system!

fzaffino

Thanks Keith for the information. I usually get tired of eating all the stuff on the course too. Your diets sounds like mine except, I have not eaten any grains for the last four weeks and very little fruit except for blueberries, strawberries, and rasberries. I have been averaging only around 60grams of carbs a day while training for a HIM in Sept. We'll see how it goes tonight....I have a pretty intense 2 hour run. I plan on having a scoop of UCAN prior to the workout and carry another serving on the run.

fzaffino

Two books I recommend for anyone thinking about a low-carb, moderate protein, and High-fat diet for health are:
The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance by Voltek and Phinney
and
Keto Clarity: your definitive guide to the benefits of a low-carb, high-fat diet by Jimmy Moore and Eric Westman, MD.

Another valuable resource is the Ask Prof Noakes podcasts.

@David....thanks for posting the JW debate. I am extremely late to that party, but apparently JW's approach worked since he crushed IMMT compared to his previous times. The information in that thread alone only reinforces what I have said before, every individual is different and we need to find what works for us.

Peter Greagg

Don't want to hijack this thread but peeps considering a no or low carb approach to diet should be aware there are many many studies that show low carb diets decrease time to fatigue and decrease the amount of work you can perform. Also low carb diets also negatively impact on recovery (See page 75 in Skiba "Scientific Training for Triathletes").
I also am keen on Racing Weight.

Patricia Rosen

here's a nice blurb on nutrition from "pain cave"
http://www.paincave.com/news_article/show/401095?referrer_id=685053?utm_source=mailchimp26&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=SweepstakesEmail
I've got to agree. however, I use BCAA's which is easily digestible and already part of the EFS drink.