@John Withrow , what gearing did you have on your bike (chain ring and cassette size) and what size crank arms did you have for that race?
Since we are both bigger guys, I'm thinking your gearing choice will probably be a good one for me. My TT bike is in the shop right now, but my notes say it is a 50/34 and 25/11. I see your average cadence was 83 during the race (according to your garmin file), I also like to ride at a lower cadence in that range, so that also helps me in my planning.
Related to that:
How often did you spin out going down? How often did you have to stop pedaling going downhill?
How often did you have to slow down going downhill because of a no-passing zone?
@Larry Peters (you'll always be Gronk in my heart...)
I had what was the equivalent of a 52/36 crankset (with 170mm crank arms).
I either ran an 11-27 or an 11-28. That's pretty much all I ever use for training or racing (with the few exceptions of a perfectly flat race like Florida and Cozumel). I would swap your 11-25 cassette out for an 11-28. My opinion is that 'mo gears is 'mo better! Provided you're not super sensitive to cadence gaps (which I am not). Speaking of cadence, many years ago I tried diligently to get my cadence up into the mid ~90's. Worked for several months when I was really focusing on it, but I eventually gave up and stopped fussing over it. I'm completely comfortable and steady up into the low 100's if I'm coming down a big hill. But I'm equally comfortably in the 70's for long periods of time. I don't really even look at cadence anymore and don't really worry about it. So whatever my cadence is/was, it wan't intentional.
There's really only one hill on IMMT that you "might" spin out on and that comes near the end of the loop. But honestly it's not very long and is a bit twisty, so I'm pretty sure there weren't any real "spin out" sections like you might find coming down the big hill in Lake Placid for ~5 straight minutes.
But there are a couple 90 degree turns you take at speed (particularly right out of Transition, and at the end of the loop and the beginning of loop 2) which I stopped pedaling into (for like 3 seconds).
The vast majority of the IMMT bike course is gradual ups or gradual downs with at least half of it being on the side of a big highway. And it might be windy for parts of it. Practice staying in your aero bars for a couple hours straight. But it gives you just enough opportunity to change positions every once in a while to stay loose, and then has ~15 mins of easy-ish climbing on your bullhorns right when you need to loosen your back up near the end of the loop. I think it is the perfect "big guy" course and particularly good for EN Ninjas who are fit and smart on the one big hill...
You're FTP is MUCH higher than mine was when I did that race. You need to get skinny... And soon start worrying about maxing out your 5-hour power. You'll be fine!
@Larry Peters - Gronk, you absolutley want an 11/28 on the rear for this.. you want to spin these hills, not grind up them... the 2nd out and back section, I forget the name has a bunch of 'steps' you climb and some can be steepish... if ridden wrong will chew you up, this is also where they had bad crashes on the way back a year or so ago.. here's a good course description I found- https://tiredlegsemptymind.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-ironman-mont-tremblant-course/
The 11/28 cassette is now installed. Its the same one I used for CdA 70.3 last year. I now have 172.5 mm crank arms instead of 175 mm (just got it back from shop today). Since I like low cadence and I should be around 4.0 W/kg for the race (I'm pretty darn close now) , do you think I should have 52/36 crank instead of 50/34?
I read this in @Rich Stanbaugh 2017 IMMT race report, which makes me wonder about chain rings since JW also had 52/36: “Before the race, my gearing was 50-34 chain rings and 12-28 cassette. I changed to an 11-28 cassette three days before the race. That was a good decision. I spent the most time in the biggest gears. I need to consider moving to a bigger chain ring.” -Rich Stanbaugh
(I guess all three of us will be riding together in CO soon enough. :) So I can pick your brains about it then too. Thanks!)
JW & Hoff - Cool. I really appreciate the info. I'm planning to spend a long weekend on the IMMT course training in mid July with a tri club out of VT, so I'll be sure to take note of the sections you warn about. Typically, I'm pretty comfortable in my aero bars. Hoff, thanks, I'll check out that course description before I head there.
@Larry Peters - I had done IMMT twice before, so had the luxury of nerding out on the bike data. Looking at my Di2 data, on most IM bike courses, I never spend much time in my highest gears. IMMT is different for me. The 117 has descents that are followed by long flat to 1% declines. You can gain a ton of speed on the descent and then keep pushing a high gear with a low cadence and carry a lot of speed on the course.
It also has the Lac Superior climb. It isn't a had climb, as far as climbs go, but it stair-steps up for 6.3mi and there are a couple pretty steeps sections where you will 100% want all your gears the second time up (starting at ≈mile 100).
In the end, I went with the 11t rather than the 12t on the cassette because it let me hold the speed a little longer on the 117 and that fit my w/kg at that point in time. As long as you protect the second trip up Lac Superior, you'll probably get more use out of the big gears on this course than on some others.
@Larry Peters - spinning your way up the hill is better than grinding, that said, 52/36 isn't where the real beasty pros are, they are in 53s and even 54s, I think the 52/36 is a better option. I am not a great climber in a "bike" race, but am perfectly able in a tri where we smooth out the hills by riding .72-.75 on hills.. I think you will fine on the Lac Superior with the bigger rings. I can remember one "step" on the ladder where my cadence was super slow, but they really are short steps.
When I look at just the Top end question, having a 52 vs a 50 means you'll spin out (I assumed 110 rpms for that) at ~41mph vs ~39.5mph. In the ~40mph context, you're likely better off just going into your super tuck (Think of what your Zwift guy does coming down Alp du Zwift if you're not pedaling) and being aero and coasting.
My Max speed on the IMMT Course was 50.1mph, so clearly I was coasting in an aero position for that. And my peak 2 min speed was 39.3mph. Said a different way, there are very few times on that course that you will be spinning out whether you have a 52 or a 50 as your big ring.
I just looked at my file for the race. I spent exactly 7:38 above 38.6mph... (and I spend ~14mins at 0 cadence)
But I spent almost 3 hours in the 18-30mph window. So even if you are a MASHER (at 80 cadence), you'll be unlikely to even be in your 11 for very long even if you have a 50T, because once you are going north of 38mph, you'll quickly be spinning out whether you have a 50T or a 52T.
So save your $$. Stop stressing so much. And eat healthy (and lose 10+ more lbs). You have a big boy FTP now. You have a big boy W/Kg now. You need to be able to stay aero for 5 hours of completely steady riding. You need to be able to put out ~215-230W for 5 hours and have it be one of your easiest ~5.0-5.5 hours rides of the entire year. "If" you can do that and run conservatively and smart... Then you will have a fantastically fast first Ironman.
Very cool website you shared JW. Thanks a ton for that analyses! I didn't realize what a small difference it would make.
Ha! Thanks for your kind words and vote of confidence. I eat super healthy, just need to eat less. I was under 189 for the first time since august this week (morning fasted). So that is moving in the right direction. I'm shooting for 185, but we'll see. Losing 10 pounds is so hard, can't I just boost my FTP another 18 watts? LOL. (insert tongue sticking out emoji) Your message and encouragement helps add a lot of fuel to my fire. Thanks!
Comments
@John Withrow , what gearing did you have on your bike (chain ring and cassette size) and what size crank arms did you have for that race?
Since we are both bigger guys, I'm thinking your gearing choice will probably be a good one for me. My TT bike is in the shop right now, but my notes say it is a 50/34 and 25/11. I see your average cadence was 83 during the race (according to your garmin file), I also like to ride at a lower cadence in that range, so that also helps me in my planning.
Related to that:
How often did you spin out going down? How often did you have to stop pedaling going downhill?
How often did you have to slow down going downhill because of a no-passing zone?
Thanks!
@Larry Peters (you'll always be Gronk in my heart...)
I had what was the equivalent of a 52/36 crankset (with 170mm crank arms).
I either ran an 11-27 or an 11-28. That's pretty much all I ever use for training or racing (with the few exceptions of a perfectly flat race like Florida and Cozumel). I would swap your 11-25 cassette out for an 11-28. My opinion is that 'mo gears is 'mo better! Provided you're not super sensitive to cadence gaps (which I am not). Speaking of cadence, many years ago I tried diligently to get my cadence up into the mid ~90's. Worked for several months when I was really focusing on it, but I eventually gave up and stopped fussing over it. I'm completely comfortable and steady up into the low 100's if I'm coming down a big hill. But I'm equally comfortably in the 70's for long periods of time. I don't really even look at cadence anymore and don't really worry about it. So whatever my cadence is/was, it wan't intentional.
There's really only one hill on IMMT that you "might" spin out on and that comes near the end of the loop. But honestly it's not very long and is a bit twisty, so I'm pretty sure there weren't any real "spin out" sections like you might find coming down the big hill in Lake Placid for ~5 straight minutes.
But there are a couple 90 degree turns you take at speed (particularly right out of Transition, and at the end of the loop and the beginning of loop 2) which I stopped pedaling into (for like 3 seconds).
The vast majority of the IMMT bike course is gradual ups or gradual downs with at least half of it being on the side of a big highway. And it might be windy for parts of it. Practice staying in your aero bars for a couple hours straight. But it gives you just enough opportunity to change positions every once in a while to stay loose, and then has ~15 mins of easy-ish climbing on your bullhorns right when you need to loosen your back up near the end of the loop. I think it is the perfect "big guy" course and particularly good for EN Ninjas who are fit and smart on the one big hill...
You're FTP is MUCH higher than mine was when I did that race. You need to get skinny... And soon start worrying about maxing out your 5-hour power. You'll be fine!
@Larry Peters - Gronk, you absolutley want an 11/28 on the rear for this.. you want to spin these hills, not grind up them... the 2nd out and back section, I forget the name has a bunch of 'steps' you climb and some can be steepish... if ridden wrong will chew you up, this is also where they had bad crashes on the way back a year or so ago.. here's a good course description I found- https://tiredlegsemptymind.wordpress.com/2015/07/17/the-ultimate-guide-to-the-ironman-mont-tremblant-course/
Thanks so much for the advice @John Withrow and @scott dinhofer !
The 11/28 cassette is now installed. Its the same one I used for CdA 70.3 last year. I now have 172.5 mm crank arms instead of 175 mm (just got it back from shop today). Since I like low cadence and I should be around 4.0 W/kg for the race (I'm pretty darn close now) , do you think I should have 52/36 crank instead of 50/34?
I read this in @Rich Stanbaugh 2017 IMMT race report, which makes me wonder about chain rings since JW also had 52/36: “Before the race, my gearing was 50-34 chain rings and 12-28 cassette. I changed to an 11-28 cassette three days before the race. That was a good decision. I spent the most time in the biggest gears. I need to consider moving to a bigger chain ring.” -Rich Stanbaugh
(I guess all three of us will be riding together in CO soon enough. :) So I can pick your brains about it then too. Thanks!)
https://endurancenation.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/23714/rich-stanbaugh-immt-2017-race-report
JW & Hoff - Cool. I really appreciate the info. I'm planning to spend a long weekend on the IMMT course training in mid July with a tri club out of VT, so I'll be sure to take note of the sections you warn about. Typically, I'm pretty comfortable in my aero bars. Hoff, thanks, I'll check out that course description before I head there.
@Larry Peters - I had done IMMT twice before, so had the luxury of nerding out on the bike data. Looking at my Di2 data, on most IM bike courses, I never spend much time in my highest gears. IMMT is different for me. The 117 has descents that are followed by long flat to 1% declines. You can gain a ton of speed on the descent and then keep pushing a high gear with a low cadence and carry a lot of speed on the course.
It also has the Lac Superior climb. It isn't a had climb, as far as climbs go, but it stair-steps up for 6.3mi and there are a couple pretty steeps sections where you will 100% want all your gears the second time up (starting at ≈mile 100).
In the end, I went with the 11t rather than the 12t on the cassette because it let me hold the speed a little longer on the 117 and that fit my w/kg at that point in time. As long as you protect the second trip up Lac Superior, you'll probably get more use out of the big gears on this course than on some others.
But - protect that last climb...
@Larry Peters - spinning your way up the hill is better than grinding, that said, 52/36 isn't where the real beasty pros are, they are in 53s and even 54s, I think the 52/36 is a better option. I am not a great climber in a "bike" race, but am perfectly able in a tri where we smooth out the hills by riding .72-.75 on hills.. I think you will fine on the Lac Superior with the bigger rings. I can remember one "step" on the ladder where my cadence was super slow, but they really are short steps.
@Larry Peters I'd just stick with the 50/34 if I were you and save the $$ on either buying a new crankset, or even just new chainrings.
You can go here to play with any of the gear ratios you can imagine:
When I look at just the Top end question, having a 52 vs a 50 means you'll spin out (I assumed 110 rpms for that) at ~41mph vs ~39.5mph. In the ~40mph context, you're likely better off just going into your super tuck (Think of what your Zwift guy does coming down Alp du Zwift if you're not pedaling) and being aero and coasting.
My Max speed on the IMMT Course was 50.1mph, so clearly I was coasting in an aero position for that. And my peak 2 min speed was 39.3mph. Said a different way, there are very few times on that course that you will be spinning out whether you have a 52 or a 50 as your big ring.
I just looked at my file for the race. I spent exactly 7:38 above 38.6mph... (and I spend ~14mins at 0 cadence)
But I spent almost 3 hours in the 18-30mph window. So even if you are a MASHER (at 80 cadence), you'll be unlikely to even be in your 11 for very long even if you have a 50T, because once you are going north of 38mph, you'll quickly be spinning out whether you have a 50T or a 52T.
So save your $$. Stop stressing so much. And eat healthy (and lose 10+ more lbs). You have a big boy FTP now. You have a big boy W/Kg now. You need to be able to stay aero for 5 hours of completely steady riding. You need to be able to put out ~215-230W for 5 hours and have it be one of your easiest ~5.0-5.5 hours rides of the entire year. "If" you can do that and run conservatively and smart... Then you will have a fantastically fast first Ironman.
Thanks a ton @Rich Stanbaugh , @scott dinhofer and @John Withrow !
Very cool website you shared JW. Thanks a ton for that analyses! I didn't realize what a small difference it would make.
Ha! Thanks for your kind words and vote of confidence. I eat super healthy, just need to eat less. I was under 189 for the first time since august this week (morning fasted). So that is moving in the right direction. I'm shooting for 185, but we'll see. Losing 10 pounds is so hard, can't I just boost my FTP another 18 watts? LOL. (insert tongue sticking out emoji) Your message and encouragement helps add a lot of fuel to my fire. Thanks!