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Heavy Sweater

bremerbremer
in General Training Discussions

Hi all,

Open-houser here checking things out.  So far, I'm digging it.  I'm 42 now, did my first sprint and olympic events at 38, looking at my first HIM this summer and IMWI in 2011.

[I'm sure this topic must have been covered in the past, but I haven't been able to find it in the searches.  If it has, I would be as happy with instructions to search properly as getting the answer here.]

I haven't done the formal weight test yet, but I clearly fall into the heavy sweater category.  My 1000mL camelbak + 2x 750mL bottles last less than 2 hours in the summer, and I never need to stop for potty breaks.  When I'm training, I often determine ride routes based on frequent water refill locations. 

My main question comes in regards to long course races: I'm concerned that water stations do not come frequently enough to keep me properly hydrated.  I can't see refilling the camelbak midrace and I only have 2 bottle holders.  For those of you out there that share my condition, have you had problems or used any special tricks on race day to avoid such problems?  Are the water stations more frequent than I fear?  I also worry about losing a bottle on a bump and falling behind on intake - is this just paranoia?

Enough rambling - you get the idea.  Thanks much!

Comments

  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson

    HI Brian,

    First of all - Welcome!

    Have you been checked for Diabetes Insipidus?  Are you very thirsty and peeing a lot when you aren't working out?  I don't think your symptoms fit, but something to think about.  

    There are also hydration systems (I'm drawing a blank on the names) that have a huge bladder under your seat and a straw that comes up to the handle bars.  That might be a good option for you as well.  You are not paranoid about bottles falling off.  I had a client lose ALL of his planned race nutrition because of rail road tracks and bottles on the seat.  

    You should also weigh yourself before/after your workouts just to start getting familiar with how much you actually are losing and compensating for during your workouts.

     

  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick

    Welcome + What Penny Said! That's a phenomenally large amount of fluids to be consuming! Aid stations on the bike in an IM are every 10 miles, or 30-45 minutes, which should be plenty of time for you. Given your situation, I would plan on having another camelback at the special needs / halfway point of your IM so you could just swap that out. If you need to stop, you just do it. Better to take 5' during a race than end your entire race early for lack of fluids! Keep us posted!

    Patrick

  • Nemo BrauchNemo Brauch

    I second the recommendation to do a sweat test- you'll be surprised what you will learn.  Look here for simple instructions and an worksheet to help calculate the results:

    http://endurancenation.us.dnnmax.co...fault.aspx

     

  • Paul HoughPaul Hough
    I'm in the same heavy sweating boat. I did IMFL in 2008...drank tons, did not stop to pee and didn't pee on the bike either although I witnessed competitors doing the deed twice! I hit the toilet in T2 and that was it until several hours after my finish. I'll be riding IMCDA with 3 bottle holders, but one will have tools. I'll be tossing an empty at EVERY stop, using the 2nd as a reserve in case I miss one. Unless it's below 70 I plan on drinking 2 bottles per hour.
  • Mark StovallMark Stovall
    I did my first sweat test last night. I was telling my wife that it is notable that I have never had to pee during my long bikes and runs this year. Including a 5:15 ride two weeks ago. I usually try and drink one 21 oz bottle of Infinit plus a little more water, maybe 6 oz's or so, every hour. This is based almost solely on what I see other people doing in their race rehearsals. Anyway, I weighed 213.5 before my 1 hour run and weighed 207.5 afterwards resulting in 6 pounds lost. I did not drink any fluids during the 1 hour run. It was hot but not as hot as it has been recently. It was 88 degrees and humid out, 6:00pm. Based on the calculations that Penny submitted, that would mean 96 - 144 oz/hour.

    I feel pretty confident that I can not put away 5 bottle of fluids every hour. But it appears that I need to in order to keep hydrated. Is that possible? Maybe the test was affected by something else like being over-hydrated before I started maybe? I will do the test again next week just to verify the first one.

    It would explain my heart rate going up over my long rides even though I am holding a level output of watts. I always attributed that to the heat but maybe I am really dehydrated and just don't know it. I do struggle once I have been on the bike more than 4 hours or on the run for over 1.5 hours. I always attributed that to being too heavy for this sport. Anyway, your thoughts would be welcome. Thanks!

    btw Gordon, I now know how I am going to get under 200 pounds now. I just need to go on a 2 hour run with no fluids and BAM!
  • jburbattjburbatt
    One of the bottle systems that Penny is referring to is called a Speedfil (http://www.invisciddesign.com/). There are a few other systems similar to the Speedfil out on the market too. When I prepare for a race, I like to have some kind of a nutrition back up plan in case something goes wrong so that I know what to do and prevent panicking . I have a pretty sensitive stomach so I tend to stick to infinit, gels, and water, but about once every couple of weeks during training I do a run or bike and consume some of the things I know will be on the course for my nutrition. It is not a pleasant workout, as I definitely struggle some, but considering that during my last HIM I needed to take in the course nutrition , I was glad I had at least tested it out and knew what would work "well enough" to help me to keep going. And on another note, I also am a heavy sweater, and would caution you to make sure that you are taking in enough sodium when racing, especially given the amount of liquids you are taking in. Moving into HIM/IM distance really made a huge difference in the amount of salt I need to take in relative to liquids vs. when I was doing short-course. Welcome to EN!
  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson

    @Mark: Glad you did the test.  I do agree with your thoughts to do a repeat just to verify.  You can also weigh yourself before/after your workouts to see if that is normal for you.  I'm a big fan of weighing before/after just so you do get to know what is "normal" for your body and can then correlate things that are abnormal with differences in performance and how you feel.

    Keep us posted!

     

  • David FlintDavid Flint
    @Penny - Hi there Penny - did a sweat test today; followed your protocol - 1hr 40min ride, approx low to mid 70's F temps, an ABP ride on fresh-legs - didn't drink at all (I know!) but thought it'd make the calcs easier - lost 1.7kgs (3.75 lbs).

    Kinda surprised by the fluid loss in 100 minutes riding! Does this make me a heavy sweater? Although I do need to re-check the numbers - had to 'bend my brain' a little to do a mass of conversions to metric measures! At that sweat rate I'd need 1.2 to 1.9 litres of fluid per hour - more than 1 x 750ml big bottle - seems high??
    Need to work out the sodium levels.................
  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson
    @David: Here's my math. . . Please double-check me.

    Fluid loss:
    3.75 pounds x 16 oz/pound = 60 oz = ~ 1.8 L
    3.75 pounds x 24 oz/pound = 90 oz = ~ 2.7 L

    L per hour:
    1.8/1.66 = 1 L (1 hour 40 minutes is about 1 and 2/3 hours which is why I divided by 1.66)
    2.7/1.66 = 1.6 L

    L per 10 minutes
    1 L / 5 = .2 L (about 6 oz)
    1.6 L / 5 = .32 L (about 10 oz)

    So, you'd need to drink between .2 and .32 L every 10 minutes. You can also divide by 4 to see how much you'd need to take every 15 minutes.

    Sodium levels:
    You need about 500 to 1000 mg/hour. I'd use that as a starting point. If you are a salty sweater (crusty when finished) you may need to increase that amount.

    Here is what I'd suggest next.
    - Fill your water bottle with a known quantity of fluid.
    - Take a normal swig.
    - Dump out the fluid to see what is left. That will tell you how much fluid was in the swig.
    - Use this to see how many swigs you'd need to take to reach your goal and see if that is possible. You can also mark your water bottles using a permanent marker with a mark for each 15 minutes/hour/whatever to help you monitor your intake.

    How does that sound?



  • David FlintDavid Flint

     Hi Penny - thanks for your help on this!  I'll measure the 'swig rate' and try that out during my long rides this weekend - I've also emailed Infinit to see what they can come up with for a custom formula (have been using their standard Ride mix);  it may be a tad early to go with a custom mix however when I haven't dialled in the salts yet - all I know is that I did start to cramp in the quads at around mile 40 of my HIM.

    Maybe just go with the 1000mg's to begin with - any issues with too much salts? (the Infinit Ride mix gave me 173kc p/hr + 213 mg/hr sodium / 61mg potassium). That seems way too low if I'm calculating correctly.

    I guess I also need to consider the combined Infinit swig with the water chaser as total fluid volume? I'll dial everything in & post back my findings - with IMCoz as my next race this is something that obviously needs major focus - think Kona-like conditions apparently .

    Thanks again Penny!

    Dave

     

     

     

  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson
    Dave: Happy to help! Yes, you should supplement your fuel with water to make up the fluid difference. See what you can come up with Infinit. You can shove a lot in there. However, depending on how much you need to supplement with you can use Hammer Endurlytes on the low end or Succeed S!Caps on the high end (not sure if you can get those where you are, but I'm sure you can find something similar).

    Your cramping could have been due to a lot of things including dehydration in addition to electrolytes. People like to immediately go to electrolytes when it really is dehydration. Just something to keep in mind.

    Yes, IMCoz is HOT!

    Keep us posted.

  • David FlintDavid Flint

    Hi Penny - response back from Infinit in UK (the EU HQ) - I mentioned about IMCoz & my desire to get a formula dialled-in plus the possible use of a Speedfill for that race. I haven't responded as yet, any observations/comments before I do? Emmie (at Infinit) makes ref' to whether I found Infinit Ride salty; answer is, not one bit so I guess I can up the electrolytes.

    Be good to get all 5hrs worth of Infinit into the 1.2L Speedfill, Thanks again, Dave



    Hi David,

    Thanks for the info.



    For your weight range and body fat range you will need between 260 and 310kcal/hour. Your sweat test suggests you're losing about 1 litre an hour but in Mexico it will be hotter so you will sweat more. 2 scoops RIDE has 260kcal/600ml and 319mg sodium as an indicator of electrolyte level. To get 260kcal you need to drink 600ml infinit RIDE to get 310kcal you need to drink 710kml RIDE per hour if you're sweating a litre an hour to replace sweat you'll need another 300ml ish water.



    You dont need to use gels. If you do, you should drink more water in addition....whatever is recommended by the gel and a bit more for safety !



    Speedfil capacity is 1.2 litre. If using a speedfill the best way of fuelling is to start with a speedfil bottle with 2 x 600ml servings of infinit plus one bottle of infinit concentrate and one bottle of water. That way you have all the calories you need and are completely in control. All you need to do then is pick up water from the aid stations and squeeze 2 x servings of infinit concentrate into your speedfil to get the right concentration. If you run out of fuel before the aid station you can fill up with 1 2scoop serving of infinit plus enough water from the water bottle to make up 600ml.



    For guidance on how to mix up a bottle of infinit concentrate see video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFMZMkMkcjg. Mark off where each 2 scoop serving of infinit concentrate is when the bottle of concentrate is upsidown (you will squeeze it out upsideown) .



    If you create a custom mix go to www.infinitnutrition.eu/interview,asp that will get your electrolytes level right for you. Do you find RIDE salty in taste. Its important the taste is good as otherwise you wont feel like drinking litres of the stuff on your bike ! So long as you don't find RIDE too salty there's scope to increase the electrolyte level up to the half way point or slitghtly more (425mg sodium). If you want to drink more or less volume of infinit tweak the calories by moving the sliders.



    You want to keep osmalality below 280 to make everything is easily digestible.



    Create a formula using the interview, do any tweaks you want and give me a call if you've got any concerns and i'll do my best to help.



    Another tip if you don't think you've time to acclimatise for Mexico add a bit of salt to food in the week before you race and make sure you start the race fully hydrated. If you drink sea water during the swim (its got a high osmolality) flush it out of your stomach by drinking water before you start taking on board water.



    Have a look at the profile of the course. Its easier to digest fuel on the flat or going down hill when you blood is not in your quads...during flat/downhill more blood will be around your stomach and able to take away the fuel in your stomach.



    All the best

    Emmie.

  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson
    @David: All the information from Infinit looks good. The other good thing is that you have time to practice and get it dialed-in before the race. I would try an order of what they suggest but up the electrolytes (keep an eye on the osmalality). I would also start with the lower calorie level to be sure your GI tract is happy with that. If it is, you can increase it a bit.

    With the concentrated solution . . . practice, practice, practice. It can go really right, and it can go really, really, really wrong. If it goes wrong, you can have a hard time getting back to right. By that I mean from GI distress to back in the race. Did I say practice? :-)

    Keep us posted!

  • Barbara SpitlerBarbara Spitler
    Penny, I've been trying to figure out my sodium intake, per my sweat rate, but am getting myself more confused each time I refigure! I lost 4 lbs. in a 6 hour bike ride. If I did my figuring correctly, I would need an avg. of 32.5 oz. of fluid per hour. I am using a Speedfil on my bike, for water. I have two-3.5 hour bike bottles of concentrated Infinit which I will use during the bike portion of IMLOU. I plan to be on the bike for approx. 7.5-8 hours. Can you figure this to how much fluid I need per hour, and how much sodium per hour? I also have Hammer Endurolytes as supplement, which I usually seem to need. I am totally soaked everytime I workout! I sweat buckets! I am a fuller figured woman, not a lil' peep, fyi.
  • penlynwilsonpenlynwilson
    Posted By Barbara Spitler on 20 Aug 2010 05:34 PM

    Penny, I've been trying to figure out my sodium intake, per my sweat rate, but am getting myself more confused each time I refigure! I lost 4 lbs. in a 6 hour bike ride. If I did my figuring correctly, I would need an avg. of 32.5 oz. of fluid per hour. I am using a Speedfil on my bike, for water. I have two-3.5 hour bike bottles of concentrated Infinit which I will use during the bike portion of IMLOU. I plan to be on the bike for approx. 7.5-8 hours. Can you figure this to how much fluid I need per hour, and how much sodium per hour? I also have Hammer Endurolytes as supplement, which I usually seem to need. I am totally soaked everytime I workout! I sweat buckets! I am a fuller figured woman, not a lil' peep, fyi.

    Barbara,

    Here's the info needed:

    - Weight lost

    - Fluid consumed

    - Time

    I think you've provided it but want to be sure I know how much fluid you are consuming. Also, are you urinating? It is easier to calculate if you do a sweat trial where we don't have to take that into account.  More questions:

    - Are you a salt sweater - crusty when you finish?

    - How do you know you need the endurlytes?

    - What is your Infinit mix?

     

  • eliwashereeliwashere
    Hey All,
    Since someone brought this back to life, I wanted to join in.
    I have done sweat tests in the past and would consider myself a heavy, salty sweat bomb.
    I am 6 ft 210 lbs with about 17% BF.
    I usually lose about 6 lbs over the course of an hour workout in the Florida heat-biking or running (EN style, WORK type workout).
    I am sure I cannot take in the equivalent amount of fluid to stay at my starting weight.
    However, since I am always training and refilling, is it possible that my starting weight is high due to over hydration?
    How much weight could this account for?
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