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Leventhal's Dallas Marathon Plan

David LeventhalDavid Leventhal
in Racing Forum 🏎

Coach P / Other Running Ninjas.

I'm racing Austin 70.3 this Sunday, 10/26 - my final triathlon of what has been a really fun season.  After that I'm signed up for the Dallas Marathon which is on Sunday, December 14th.

That means I've got exactly 7 weeks to get my butt ready to run 26.2 miles. My goal is 3:45. I ran a 4:04 in this marathon 10 years ago...I was about 15 pounds heavier and nowhere near as in shape as I am today.  I believe that 3:45 is within my grasp based on how I've been running...though I haven't done a 5k test in a long time because, frankly I fear the hamstring / glute injury that has affected me on and off this year. To give you some sense of my pacing - in September I ran 94 miles with an average pace of 8:31 per mile. So far in October I've run 62 miles at an average pace of 8:10 per mile (the cooler temps help a lot!).

To substitute an official 5k test I took a run I did back on 10/11 - it was a 4.11 mile run and I averaged 7:40 per mile (time was 31:29 & I didn’t really go into the run thinking I was going to push it…after the 1st mile I was feeling pretty good and just picked up the pace. I actually feel that I could have gone faster – but again, I fear the injury so I try to avoid really pushing it).

Using Jack Daniel’s calculator that gives me a VDOT of 41.3 & sets my training zones as follows. That translates – if trained & executed properly to a 3:43:xx marathon. 

So – to the running Jedi among us here are my questions:

  1. Which plan should I jump into & what should my training schedule look like?
  2. Coming of an HIM plan is 7 weeks (which I guess is really closer to 6 weeks because I assume I’ll need a week to recover from Austin) enough time to realistically shoot for a 3:45 or less marathon?
  3. Do you think that the above zones make sense?
  4. Additional thoughts I need to consider?

I appreciate any feedback!

- David

Comments

  • Peter NoyesPeter Noyes
    Hi David,

    I am pretty much in the same boat as you! I just compared the 3 different Balanced Marathon Plans (Beg, Int, Adv) and they are not all that different. They are all going to build up to a 20 mile run over the next several weeks. The only difference I could see was intensity. For this Austin build have you been doing the Z4 work? Or are you still not pushing the intensity because of the glute/hamstring issues? If you aren't currently pushing the intensity I would suggest the beginner plan. I hope it is possible to build up to a marathon in 7 weeks because that is what I am currently doing! I would say that the 3:45 marathon is realistic because your vdot is probably higher than 41. Have fun in Austin!
  • Mike RobertsMike Roberts

    David,

    I'm far from being a run ninja, but I've run a lot of marathons, completely BS'd the training for a few of them, and have dealt with nagging injuries.  Can you do it?  Of course.  Piece of cake.  But your #1 goal, IMO, should be to not aggravate the hamstring and don't jeopardize any 2015 plans. When my hamstring bugs me (it has on/off this year), I cut back on the Z4 work, as that's when the pain always appears.  So, I would go with the beginner plan like Peter advises, build up to 17-18 miles, call it good, and see what unfolds on race day.  Your vDOT isn't anywhere near the low 40's, BTW.

    I really enjoyed the White Rock Marathon (don't know if they still call it that), but the Dolly Parton hills they threw in at Mile 19-21 absolutely destroyed me.  I hobbled in a 10+ pace.  Free advice: If the course still features those things, approach them with more respect and smarts than I did.

    Best of luck this weekend and on the road to Dallas.

    Mike

  • David LeventhalDavid Leventhal
    @Mike - yes...the hills threw me for a loop 10 years ago as well. I'll be definitely approaching them with a bit more respect this year.

    Regarding my vDOT - I couldn't tell from the context - do you think it's overstated or understated?
  • Peter NoyesPeter Noyes
    I think your vdot is much higher than 41. You did a 4 mile test instead of 3.1 and you said you could have pushed it faster. A real 5k TT should have you wanting to puke / cry / pass out at the 3 mile mark.
  • Mike RobertsMike Roberts
    Ditto.  You're way higher than 41.  41 would put your Z1 at 10:00 pace and your threshold pace at 8:02.  Across all of your runs in October - with a bum hammy - you've averaged 8:10.  You didn't run Z4 every step in October.  Probably more like Z2-3.  You're at least a 45.  You can always do a 5k, 10k, etc. to test.  Or figure it out based on your Z4 repeats (i.e., when my repeats are consistently 6:55 with effort, I know I'm 50.  When they start dropping to 6:45 range on same effort, I know I'm up to 51, etc.).  In fact, I can probably take my HIM run this weekend, subtract 5 minutes, and come really close to approximating my vDOT. 
  • novaavantnovaavant
    No way your vDOT is a 41. Mine is a legitimate 41 and I can't touch the pacing you mention for your runs. I'm with Mike a properly executed 5k test would probably yield a 45-46 for you.
  • Al TruscottAl Truscott

    David - my thoughts:

    • First off, no matter what your VDOT is, 7 weeks is not enough time to get a sufficient volume of training in to expect to run a marathon at Daniels' projected pace.
    • So, you've got several issues: what paces should I train at, how much should I be training, and, what should I do on race day?
    • Training paces…you could use what you've been doing getting ready for your HIM, and/or you could SWAG it. Getting a 5K in might not help that much, given how little time you have. So based on what I saw you do in CDA, and an assumption that your TP (mile repeats) is in the 7:00-7:15 range, I say go with a VDOT of 46 for training purposes.
    • Over the three weeks following the HIM, get in three long runs of 15-16, 18, and 16 miles, aiming for 8:20-8:40 LRP, with a few miles at the end in 7:30-45. Have those long runs be about 40-50% of your weekly mileage, with at least one of your other runs being something like 4 x 1 mile (2') @ TP. The rest can be LRP.
    • My advice for race day? Start out in the mid 8:30s/mile, and commit to stay there, no matter how it feels as the race progresses. At the end of the race, you should feel as if, were someone to put a gun to your head and say, "RUN!", you wouldn't be able to. 
    • Don't think you'll magically be able to go faster than that LRP you were hitting during training, you won't be able to unless you;ve had 16 weeks +/- run specific training, with 50-70 miles a week volume. That's what the Daniels' tables assume when they give you a marathon pace. Just try to replicate what you were doing on your long runs of 2.5 hours, for another hour or so. That will be challenge enough.

    FOr race day, here's my standard pacing advice: "If you run at an even pace, then the longer the race goes on, the harder it feels. Evading or delaying that feeling means one is not racing to one’s full potential. There are two other key steps needed to get to that potential: feeding the engine properly, and pacing steadily. So drinking more than you need at the start, and feeling as if you are running “stupid slow” at the start are key. Then, it’s like Chinese water torture . With every mile, every step, it gets a little harder. From miles 1-8, it’s like that long run pace. From miles 9-16, it’s like one’s “marathon pace”. From 17-22, like half marathon pace, 22-24 like a 10K would feel, and then the last two, it’s like a 5k, or even harder by mile 26. Even when going at the exact same speed on a flat course."

  • David LeventhalDavid Leventhal
    @Al - Thanks!! That is super helpful - exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. I feel like his gives me a good road map as I transition out of the HIM plan.
    Thanks!
  • David LeventhalDavid Leventhal
    @Al - when you say go with a 46 VDOT for training purposes are you referring to the Jack Daniel's calc or the modified EN calc?


  • Al TruscottAl Truscott
    I would use a LRP of 8:40-9:07, MP of 7:50-8:20, and mile repeats in 6;57-7:14.
  • David LeventhalDavid Leventhal
    This is my official acknowledgement that my Dallas Marathon plans have been derailed. I'm still wrestling with some calf cramping - which, that alone was putting the race in doubt. But the nail in the coffin occurred last Sunday when I took a minor spill on my bike and happened to land in an awkward way on my left side. Pretty sure I have a cracked rib - five days after the accident I'm in no better condition. Deep breaths are difficult & I'm having to take some strong pain meds to get through the night.

    Really disappointed. I ran the Dallas Marathon 10 years ago and was curious to see how my 40 year old self (10-15lbs lighter, in better shape & far more informed about nutrition), would have compared to my 30 year old self. Not sure what I should be doing now - besides resting for the next several weeks. I appreciate all the feedback along the way.
  • Anu RaoAnu Rao
    Bummer David, sorry to hear. Not sure of your plan for next year but you might consider Cowtown in Fort Worth, it is a tougher course than Dallas however. There is also the New Year's marathon on the 31st and well as one of the 1st in Allen, that's been sold out, but you can get on the waitlist. Pancake flat loop course. boring course.
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