How can I make my trainer time more "powerful?"
I have been legitimately enjoying a relaxed transition from my 2014 to my 2015 seasons. During this time I have been alternating days running and riding, with my efforts of "work" being in the zone three range.
One of my key morning workouts is 40 minutes on the trainer with 2 x 12 minutes at zone three effort, which is roughly 285 to 295 W. and it's not easy.
Fast forward to Sunday, when I get outside on my bike and then ride 50 miles at the exact same power.
I get that indoor and outdoor power are different, but clearly I can work a lot harder outdoors. Is there anyway I can bring this indoors so I can continue pushing my limits?
One of my key morning workouts is 40 minutes on the trainer with 2 x 12 minutes at zone three effort, which is roughly 285 to 295 W. and it's not easy.
Fast forward to Sunday, when I get outside on my bike and then ride 50 miles at the exact same power.
I get that indoor and outdoor power are different, but clearly I can work a lot harder outdoors. Is there anyway I can bring this indoors so I can continue pushing my limits?
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I found if I don't watch tv or movies but just listen to music (or nothing!!) I can hit higher numbers indoors. I chalk it up to better concentration and being more 'mindful'. That being said, my indoor and outdoor numbers are fairly equally anemic.
I ride my trainer outdoors on a deck. If the temps are below 50 or so, riding in my shorts, no shirt, I don't need a fan. Above that, I'd melt without one. I don;t see how people can ride indoors on a trainer, with or without a fan.
But Coach, why are you doing 2 x 12 @ Z3? Isn't that a "dead zone" for training - not hard enough to build anaerobic threshold, too hard to get aerobic threshold benefit? If you;re only doing 24 minutes of "work", shouldn't you be hitting Z4/5?
Just a thought.
Zombies make me pedal faster!
A power question from the Coach. It really is Team Coaching. I just put my head down and ride. Inside I can't hit anything.
I would suggest considering some VO2 work if you're not ready to commit to the trainer full time. Possibly less mentally taxing to repeatedly do 1 or 2 minute bursts of hard work than sitting at Z4 for 10, 15, 20 minutes at a time.
I find it slightly easier inside, compared to outside — but I use a Computrainer so I either do the scheduled workout or stop turning the pedals. I assume this is a mental thing!
Are you using Trainer Road (because that may make it easier)?
I agree with Doug that if you're used to always riding outdoors it is very difficult to hit those power numbers indoors. When I first started with EN , I couldn't hit my numbers. For the past year I've done pretty much all my weekday rides on the trainer. It has become a lot easier to hit my numbers when indoors. Then when I go outdoors, the zones really don't feel too bad because it is just so much more pleasant to be outdoors. But sticking with the indoor rides for a while will help I think
I'd say once your play time (relaxed riding) is over and you drop into a plan, and properly cool yourself with lots of fans, your focus/ability to hit your numbers will occur. But don't rush back too soon!!
I have been doing this a long time, been through 3 Power Taps basically wearing them out.
I find, all other things equal, I can hit a wattage number 5 - 6% higher outdoors vs. on my Cycle Ops Fluid trainer.
I use fans, a Joule 2.0, a garmin 910XT and a lot of fluids.
I think that one of the main differences has do to with the small fly wheel(less momentum) on the trainer as compared to the momentum riding outside.
I adjust my baseline (5%) when I ride outside to keep things on an equal par basis but I find the trainer to be the most effective for driving performance because I control so much more of the environment. That said, there is, IMO, no substitute for riding outside as you prepare for your long ride races leading up to that A race.
SS
The power delta between inside vs. outside has been a hot topic for many years. I finally stopped fighting it and just accept that I'm ~10W lower inside. And I've never heard of anyone legitimately hitting the same numbers, at the same RPE, on the road and the trainer. Explanations range from heat management, wind, physics (momentum), etc. But the one that makes most sense to me is that a large portion of your body and its muscle groups are fixed (and largely unused) on a trainer. The key leg muscles take the overwhelming brunt of the work. On the road, however, the bike is never perfectly vertical. There are micro-movements every single pedal stroke. So, when the bike rocks a mm or two to the left, you engage back, core and leg muscles to compensate and assist the key bike leg muscles. The rolling bike simply presents a move fluid environment than does the fixed trainer. Even if the difference is only a % or two, I can see it adding up to 10W. Probably the same reason people tend to ride faster at IMAZ (with 30 miles of mild climbing) vs. IMFL (with 30 feet of mild climbing) - utilizing more muscles to assist the quads.
The above helps me sleep at night and shouldn't be confused with science or fact.
With ^^that combination, I can actually regularly put out higher power inside than outside and can get in a really efficient workout inside in less than an hour.
@Shaughn you can wear out a Powertap from riding the trainer?? Maybe I should go back to virtual power, thats too expensive to wear out
@Jan, after about 2.5 - 3 years of hard riding, outside or inside, the PT will wear out, however, Saris will replace the insides with all new parts for about $350.00.
SS
Since the thread has already been effectively hijacked … my PowerTap is inside a Zipp 404 by Wheelbuilder is 4+ years old, at least 15,000 miles on it, of which maybe 5,000 on a Computrainer. Should I expect it to blow up this weekend…?
MR...I have come to the same conclusions, with the addition of the fact that the constant resistance of trainer I think leads to faster fatigue of the muscles. I definitely notice, as you noted, that since the bike is completely (or very nearly) fixed in the same place, the legs have to do all (or at least much more) of the "work" needed to turn the cranks. I sometimes feel like I wish I could "rock" the bike a little side to side, especially during harder intervals/VO2 sets. I agree that this seems to be the main difference. Hadn't thought about the core component....I'm continuing to try to ignore all talk about "core strength", hoping it's not important and thus I can continue to ignore it!
I've seen an ad for a trainer that has a flywheel that is "mobile" and rocks side to side (especially when out of the saddle). Can't remember which one it is, but I will look at that if my Cyclops fluid pro ever dies.
Sorry Coach....this thread has gotten way off track!
Back to the question - How can I get the highest ROI out of the time I put it?
All the vets on this thread know it is about setting a baseline and training against that baseline, whatever it is. To do that effectively, the baseline has to be consistent obviously.
If the baseline moves because of:
1) Aging equipment/components
2) Changing environment/circumstances, i.e., trainer vs. outdoor riding
......your effectiveness might be compromised.
To keep my baseline consistent for the above:
1) When I calibrate - I know when I see a ~500 - ~510 on the calibration screen, I have a healthy, consistently performing PT. When a PT begins to go, I notice that my power output seems to float up over a period of weeks and days and that calibration factor begins to go to 700, 800, 900+ over time. After ensuring batteries and firmware updates are current, I call Saris and they have me provide the calibration reading - they rebuild the unit for me when those readings are as mentioned above. I typically go through 2 OS periods each year and I will say that pulling 290 - 310 watts repeatedly on the trainer over a 3 year period can wear that PT out.....
2) I manually increase my Joule 2.0 FTP by about 5% when I ride outside so that I keep myself/effort honest to accommodate for the difference vs. the trainer.
These two points help me keep my baseline consistent when accompanied by effective FTP test ensure a good payback for the time put in.
SS
To the OP: I have a 20 watt difference in my in-season FTP between indoors and outdoors. I used to worry about the opportunity cost of any time spent inside at the lower watts ("I could be using this hour to achieve greater training stress because a watt is a watt"), but I have found that a rising tide of my indoor watts raises my outdoors boat watts. Clunky metaphor, but what I mean is if I start off at 230 indoor FTP watts/250 outdoor watts, and then ride entirely indoors for a few months and raise my indoor ftp to 255, I can more or less guarantee that once I get back on the road, the outdoor number will be 275, first time out and going forward.
(an aside: I could not pull my outdoor 275 watt FTP on an indoor trainer 2 x 20 test, or hold those watts for most midweek EN sessions, whether in-season or outseason. I can, however, hold my outdoor v02 while I'm on the trainer. I don't actually do that, and shouldn't, but I can!)
This indoor / outdoor difference sucks for tracking TSS over a season that combines indoor and outdoor riding. There's a workaround for this issue if you use WKO, but I spend way too much time transferring zeros and ones from watches to computers to gamins to whatever as it is, so I just treat it as an acknowledged anomaly.
I really like Mike Robert's point about indoor vs outside as it relates to the additional muscle groups that come into play when the bike is able to move around a little more, and see how the rollers that JW uses could help with this.
My only suggestion is not to over complicate things.
If anyone would like to complicate things, is it possible there is one more thing we can throw into the mix??....not just the amount of air (CFM) from a fan or even the temperature in the space but the "quality" of that air.
If you are in an enclosed room or even worse yet in your basement, what is the air quality in that space before, during, and after your 60-90 minute workout? When you are outside, unless you live in a smog cloud, the available O2 levels should be pretty uniform and acceptable. However, in your basement what is the fresh air ventilation or volume of fresh air in that space when you are puffing away ? Over time, (we could put sensors all over that space and make a graph) you are using up that oxygen and creating a huge amount of CO2. Oxygen into your lungs into the blood makes your legs go round and round.
I guess my nerdy point is That fan is pushing air around the room, but over time what is in that air? more and more CO2 and less and less O2.?
Sorry thought that would fun to throw that in.
Wow, it's like you guys are my real friends here in town. I love you AND I hate you.
I think my biggest issue was doing what many of us do at this time of year...desire to see my OUTSIDE watts indoors, and it's not the case. Like Dave Tallo suggested, I just need to get comfortable knowing that my INDOOR watts are about 5% to 10% less than what I see outside. Why did this happen to me? Well, I didn't take 3 months off...so I still have some fitness!
Here's how I am proceeding:
One of my goals this OS is to see if I can maintain my long run speed despite the midweek work...as I plan to keep a weekend long run. Will be curious to see how much fatigue I can accumulate before I run into friction.
Now...go start a thread so I can ruin it!
Sorry if this is a stupid question but that's never stopped me in the past.
Thanks.
Bob - I've been using a CompuTrainer since 2007. Currently in conjunction with a PowerTap PM. Uniformly, the CT is 5% LOWER than the PT. EG, I;ll see 210 on the PT, when the CT is reading 200. That's pretty standard for those of us who are using the dinosaur.
Outside vs inside is a whole other kettle of fish. There is a range of difference between "outside watts" and "inside watts", regardless of how they are measured, as reflected in this thread. Myself, I have the same FTP indoors as outdoors, but others are anywhere from 15% over to 15% higher. Not a CT issue.
Don't worry about these differences. Just test for where you are training, and racing. Meaning, you may end up with an indoor FTP, and an outdoor FTP for both the TT and the road bike. It's all good, just do the work!
Addendum to Bob - I just read your note in your IM AZ RR thread. You were using an FTP you had generated indoors on the CT? To amplify what I said ... best to test outdoors with the equipment you will be racing in - and then train on that same equipment. It is possible your FTP was 5% higher than you thought; it's also possible it was 20% higher. But I am SURE it was higher, based on the numbers you provided for your bike leg. Now you know for next time - the trainer FTP for trainer work, outdoor FTP for outdoor work and racing! Doesn't change the fact you executed near to perfection on the bike.