Garmin Vector Powermeter

bergesan

Hi guys,

Does anybody have experience with the Garmin Vector Powermeter? Can you recommend it? Is it worth the price, What do you think about the accuracy of this powermeter?

Thanks

Sandro

Satish Punna

I have them as well as several powertaps, and have used the pedals since april on my road bike.  They seem to work fine with my garmin edge 500.  They seem to be fairly consistent with my powertap (although I haven't run both on the same bike at the same time so I'm not sure).  You would expect the powertap to be a bit lower due to drivetrain losses I think.  I haven't had to take them off yet but the install procedure seems a bit daunting so I hesitate to do this, and as a consequence am looking for ways to travel with my bike without taking the pedals off.  Otherwise I have no issues at all. 

Michael Crosby

I've had the Vectors for a year now.  They have performed consistently well during that time.  I started getting some wonky readings at one point, so I changed the batteries out and that fixed everything.  It's been reported that the power level they read is slightly lower than some of the other meters (you might have an FTP of 260 on PowerTap and 254 on Vectors), but the important thing is that they're consistent. That's all that matters when it comes to measuring strength and fitness.

What I love about them is the ease of swapping them from my tri bike to my road bike.  It takes less than 5 minutes and all you need is a standard pedal wrench.  Calibration is super easy and fast.  Garmin software updates are downloadable into the pedals, as they continue to improve their algorithms. And they work with a number of different Garmin watches and head units.  If I had to make the purchase again, they would still remain my choice for power.  Hope that helps!

 

Chris Davis

I have the vectors too, and have been happy with them.

@Michael - if you're just using a standard pedal wrench, to change them out, are you getting any funky readings due to over/under torque? I see in Garmins literature, and on the internet that people make quite a big deal of using the torque wrench to change them out.

zwuba

I recently exchanged my Stages and Power2Max with a set of Vector and I'm happy so far!
If you install them correctly they give you super-accurate readings but be aware to mount and calibrate them EXACTLY as DC-Rainmaker describes it in his in-depth review!!

tim cronk

Love the idea of the vector system but if you cant just remove, change, re-install as easy as swapping pedals it seems to defeat the purpose.

@Stefan... OT here by why did you get rid of your Stages and Power2Max? Was it you sponsorship? Heathers Stages still works better than my 3 Quarq's I've had to go thru....I'm purchasing a road bike with Rotor Cranks and considering the Power2Max.... ???

Michael Crosby

@Chris-  I have the first batch that came out and I don't remember Garmin stressing the importance of torquing the pedals, so I never have.  I don't feel like my numbers have been all over the place.  However, after reading other posts, I'm looking at getting a crow foot adapter for my torque wrench so that I can follow their recommendations exactly.  I'll be curious to see if this has any effect on my current power readings.

Chris Davis

@Michael - Keep us filled in on what you find out with that crow foot and torque wrench. I'm about to start changing between my road bike and tri bike more, and taking the pedals with me. (I haven't moved them since the initial install on my tri bike). I would think that if you move them using the same pedal wrench, and then go by feel when it comes to the torque, you can get consistent results between the two bikes, even if the numbers aren't exactly accurate. But that's just a guess. I think I'm going to get a torque wrench when I start moving them around more.

zwuba

@Tim - I changed the system because it is simply impossible to train on 2 such different systems simultaneously. I did all of my tests, races and most of the training indoor on the Power2Max and this system is absolutely bulletproof. The only downside is that I bought a BCD-130mm so I can't mount small chainrings to use on my roady in the mountains and the system is pretty heavy especially when used together with an old SRAM S900 crank (as I had it).

The Stages is also a great system and very lightweight too but you can't compare the values against the Power2Max because your left foot won't be exactly same powerful as your right one! This was my main problem and due to our sponsorship I got the Vector for as less as 900EU.

Once again - the Vector system is great!

Just be sure you have a torque wrench to mount it and follow the few easy steps for calibration than you will be super-happy with that system! The two biggest issues are under-torquing the system and not doing some hard sprints on your bike for 3-4min after you initially installed the Vector but still before calibration!

I did BOTH mistakes on my first installation and the power reading was about 50-60 Watts too low!

Then I did the hard sprints and did a re-calibration on my Garmin which almost fixed the issue but still there was a slight 10W offset so I did everything form scratch and since then everything is working great!

Here is the DC-Rainmaker review including all needed details: http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2013/09/garmin-vector-review.html

zwuba

@Chris + Michael: The Crow-foot is now already included when you purchase a new Vector system! You can use it with a 3/8" torque wrench 

Caltri

I've had the Vectors for a year now with my Garmin 910XT and I'm very happy with them. I second what Stefan has said about the torque wrench and DC Rainmakers website--very helpful. Garmin recommends a torque of 25. If they are not tight enough, you will get low readings. They are very easy to install and swap between bikes as long as you have a thin crow-foot adaptor. I followed DC Rainmakers recommendations and didn't have any problems installing. Now that the adaptor is part of the kit as Stefan says, that solves the headache of having to order the thin crow-foot from Sears.
Even at the current torque, the watt readings have been consistently lower (5-10W) compared to my Computrainer watt readings.
DC Rainmaker also compares the Vector to other power meters which you might find interesting.
Some people have expressed concern about the pod hanging down from the pedal and hitting the ground and braking. I've never had that happen. The pedal hits before the pod does. The only problem I had with the pod was my own fault for not using enough washers (AKA spacers) when swapping between cranks. (DC Rainmaker does a good job of explaining this and I just forgot.) I cracked the metal ring holding the pod to the pedal screw by tightening it to a torque of 25 without the washers. I tried super gluing the metal together but no luck so had to buy a new pod.
Then about six months after using the Vectors, I started to get weird watt and cadence readings. After changing the batteries didn't help, a firmware update did the trick. Calibration with the 910 is very simple. I highly recommend them.

Leslie Knight

I'm on my fourth Stages in a year and don't recommend it.  It just craps out for no reason- including on Ironman day.  Lovely.  And it's famous for not synching with Garmin 910XT.   I kept my eye on Vector and it seemed they were never coming out.  So I got Stages.  Then Vector came out a few months later. Grrr.

Paul Hough

I have 2 bulletproof PowerTaps that give consistent readings, never drop off, and don't require any adjustment. Some year they may permanently fail and I like the idea of the Vector, but like Tim said, it seems to defeat the entire purpose of interchangeable pedal-pased power if you have to go through all of that rigamarole to get them accurate. Hopefully, someone will come up with a simple pedal system that I can take on and off with my allen key and not have to use a Torque Wrench, then do sprints on the bike, etc.

zwuba

Well in fact you need a torque wrench for almost every single bolt on your high-end-carbon-race/TT-bike so I don't see any issue here - just use the torque-wrench instead of your normal allen-key and your are done. Takes about 3-5sec more time on each side
For the initial calibration your are correct - you don't need to do that if you just put in your powertap-wheel... but don't forget we are talking about re-mounting a PowerMeter (not a wheel) onto a different place/bike and of yours the materials have to settle after mounting so the 3-5x short hard sprints shouldn't be a really big deal (unless your are changing pedals on a daily basis).

The rest (static calibration and dynamic calibration - done via Garmin Edge/Forerunner etc) is something every crank-based powermeter user should do before going for a ride. Stages, SRM and Power2Max do all request you to perform this before every ride to get exact and accurate measurements.
In the end this step just takes another few seconds you can use to get your fluids or just get yourself dressed up - remember that GPS does also take some time to acquire the position and it will run in parallel to this

bergesan

Thanks guys for all the input. I think I will go for the vector in combination with the new 920xt....
It is Xmas time after all, isn't it

Chris Davis

Has anyone taken a look at the new Vector updates, and the data that is collected? I'm noticing that my 910 isn't picking up all the same data that my 510 is. Or more specifically, all the data isn't being displayed on my Garmin connect page for my 910 file. Is there a way to check the actual file and see if it's picking up the same data? The data that's missing is the power phase data and platform offset data. I'm not sure I'd know what to do with the data, but I figure if it's available to me, I'd like to start collecting it for some sort of future use.

zwuba

Chris - I updated my Vectors just yesterday and gave a borrowed Edge1000 a try. I'm not sure if it's necessary but I had one dedicated page enabled for Cycling-Metrics and after uploading to Garmin-Connect I it showed up only temperature, elevation and power-phase everything else was not displayed.
I check the same workout on TP and everything TP can displays was there as usual so I switched back an reloaded GC and tadddaaaa no everything was there too including the cycling metrics!! (http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/661635299)


These TCX files are just XML files so yes you can open it in a text-editor and check which data has been collected!

It would be super-cool if every Vector-user here in the house would put together his/her cycling dynamics to get a better understanding for the typical range of these values ... what do you think?

Chris Davis

Thanks Stefan.

Great idea on sharing our files. My ride from yesterday is here: http://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/661996520

I make no claim that I'm a good rider, so maybe take my numbers as am example of "what not to do." Haahaa.

That being said, it would probably make more sense to compare various riders doing the same workout. Maybe the next time we do the FTP test, we get all sit down and compare files.

I went ahead and exported both the 910 file and the 510 file to .csv files using this (http://garmin.kiesewetter.nl/) webpage. And sure enough, the 510 file had more data being recorded.

Garmin 510 Data points were:
timestamp(s)
position_lat(semicircles)
position_long(semicircles)
distance(m)
accumulated_power(watts)
altitude(m)
speed(m/s)
power(watts)
heart_rate(bpm)
cadence(rpm)
temperature(C)
left_right_balance
Unknown
Unknown
Unknown
Unknown
Unknown
Unknown

The 910 Data being recorded was:
timestamp(s)
distance(m)
altitude(m)
speed(m/s)
power(watts)
heart_rate(bpm)
cadence(rpm)
left_right_balance

I had turned the GPS data off on my 910, but left it on on the 510, so obviously there's no GPS data in the 910 file. However, the 6 "unknown" fields are interesting. But that could just be a label that the webpage that I used generates, if it hasn't updated to match the Garmin updated file format. All that to say, I think the 510 really is collecting more data than the 910. I guess I'll start using the 510 to download stuff to Garmin Connect on my bike rides.

John Stark

Anyone used the Vectors for MTB? Would like to use them on my roadie and MTB. I understand there may be issues if they get muddy, but what about dry single track?

Thanks.

Stark

zwuba

Never tried it but from a technical standpoint there's no reason why it shouldn't work (except your crank arms are too thick!).
Please don't destroy them

bergesan

So, there is one question spinning around my head considering power meters: One leg or two legs? I.e. a meter that counts the overall power of both legs or a meter that counts each leg individually? The second choice would be an additional 600-700 bucks. My question: is it worth it?

Garmin Vector S would be the simple solution giving overall power for both legs only.

zwuba

I've had both types (Power2Max, StagesPower and Vector) I'd for sure go with

a) Crank-based system if I would have only one bike

b) double-sided pedal based system for full enjoyment on multiple bikes and TONS of data to look at



I need to say clearly that the StagesPower PM worked totally awesome but it does in fact not show you your REAL power which equals in not REALLY knowing your real energy needs and in case you use your data for pre-calculate your bike-split (by using bestbikesplit.com eg) it will give you incorrect results.

Moreover I'm pretty sure the vast majority of cyclists and triathletes around the globe do NOT have a 50/50 power balance and even a crank-based system like power2max won't give you accurate measurements for this metric - only a dual-sensor system can do that.

Just to give you some data -> My power2max gave me 50/50 or 49/51 for almost every ride I can remember for more than a year no matter if indoors or on the road. Then I switched to Vector pedals and until now I was NEVER able to get to 50/50 on the trainer within the last 10 weeks ... the worst balance I've ever had on average of the whole workout was 46/54!!

I think the best way to go is the Vector-S model - so if you are unsure or unsatisfied with the data quality you can easily upgrade. Changing a crank-based PM is a pain in the a$$ as you will most likely have to change the crank as well (or even worse the bottom bracket) so this gets VERY expensive after all!

KCfromKC

Satish - I'm new to using power and thought based on your post you could perhaps help me learn how to get the most out of my use of the Garmin Vector.  I have and Edge 800 and Edge 500, and I've read tons of online articles on how to use data fields and set it up, as well as how to ensure it's calibrated properly, and honestly I'm overwhelmed.  Would you at all be willing to chat with me (maybe even via phone or skype) and help me get them set up?  Or at least point me to someone you think could?

 

thanks!  Kalletta

bergesan

Hey Stefan,

Thanks for your advice. I think I follow your advice buying the S and later upgrading to both legs. This way I can better justify my investment

Chris Davis

Sandro - IMO, if you're only trying to compare yourself to "yourself yesterday" or "yourself tomorrow" or "yourself at your next Ironman", then the one leg power SHOULD be good. As long as you have good in-ride feedback to compare with your previous results, then the accuracy is irrelevant. DC rainmaker had a good article about accuracy and consistency on his site a few months ago, but I cant seem to find it now...

When/if you do upgrade to that second leg, just be aware that the results you get from "one leg power" cant really reliably be compared to 2-leg power, because of the power balance you and Stefan mention. Aside from that, I think the Vector S's are a great way to go. I probably would have bought the S if it was out when I bought my Vectors.

Another thing to mention about the S, is that the cycling dynamics that Garmin just started monitoring do not show up with the Vector S. I'm not sure if those metrics will show up if you upgrade your S at a later date. That might be something to consider if you're interested in those metrics.

bergesan

Hi Chris

Thanks for the information. What exactly are "cycling dynamics" good for? How do you use these numbers?

Chris Davis

Sandro, I think that's a big question right now that everyone is asking. As near as I can tell nobody has a good answer yet. Here is a link to their press release from August that explains things in general:

http://garmin.blogs.com/pr/2014/08/introducing-cycling-dynamics-from-garmin-revolutionary-cycling-metrics-for-vector-power-meter.html#.VL0zryvF9FY

Based on what I'm reading there, and my limited experience so far, the Power Phase data will help us to monitor/improve how smooth our pedal stroke is. For instance, if we have a short power phase (as I do), it shows that I'm not pulling, and that most of my power is coming from when I'm pushing the pedal down. If you look at Stefan's Power Phase info, you'll see that his peak power phase arc length is much larger than mine. I think this indicates that he's better at using his upward pull to generate power. Therefore, he's probably using different muscles to generate power. Therefore, to generate a given amount of power, he's spreading it out over different muscles and not taxing any given muscle as much as I am for that same amount of power generated.

As for the PCO (Platform Center Offset) stuff, it looks like that's more geared toward making sure you're pushing straight down on the pedal, rather than "rolling" side to side across the pedal as you're pushing down. I think the idea here is to be able to minimize the side to side movement of your leg/knee, and in the long run, minimize injury due to that side to side movement.

I think the biggest question to be answered by the cycling community is "how do we use this data?" And for that, I have no clue. If this were a bike only sport, then it would seem to be a good idea to maximize that power phase arc length. But if we do that, do we run a danger of hurting our run after getting off the bike by taxing some of those "pulling" muscles?

I think that's why it would be good to compile some of our collective files, as Stefan has suggested, and start looking at them. Especially our race files, and pair them up with our subsequent runs, and see how things panned out for us.