Is it worth messing up your plan to makeup a FTP test?
I know, just what everyone was looking for, yet another FTP thread!
Today I find myself in week 14 of 20 in the HIM Int plan getting ready for IMKS 70.3 in the first week of June, I was supposed to have my last FTP test on week 12 and had actually been looking forward to it. It was going to be my first outdoor FTP test and I had been feeling much stronger than my previous FTP results indicated.
Unfortunately, I didn't get to do that test, nor anything that week due to the sudden death of a close family friend and attending the funeral. I re-scheduled my FTP test for the next week and then very stupidly tried to 'make up' some of the lost training by hitting the weekend hard, and apparently went too hard because by Monday I was sick, head cold and possible sinus infection throughout the entire week. Missed the make-up test.
I finally was feeling better by the weekend, where I went out to Kansas to ride the course for a training day / 1-day free 'camp'. The ride went well, I did not ride it as a RR but rather a hard bike effort, apparently a very hard bike effort as reported by WKO: 56mi in 2:36, TSS of 262 and an IF of 1.0
Ok, so a 2.5 hr effort at an IF of 1.0, I know my FTP is now way off. I decide that I must re-rest so I can update it since I don't have many 1hr sustained efforts in my WKO files, I ride with groups a lot and I tend to have lots of shorter harder intervals as I pull during longer 2-3hr bikes. After another solid weekend of training last weekend, a hard interval run yesterday, I did a conciliatory indoor FTP test on my CompuTrainer this morning since a few local training partners wanted to test today and I figured I'd join them. The result of my non-rested / non-tapered FTP test this morning? The exact same fricken FTP as the last proper test about 6 weeks ago!
At this point, I'm frustrated, I'm working hard in my training plan and don't know when/where I can fit in the rest I need to really have a solid/accurate re-test. Should I really try to fit one in or just try to make an educated guess of my FTP from coach R's 'alternate methods of determining FTP' guidance?
Phew, felt good to get that all off my chest.
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Comments
What do your charts look like? What sort of numbers do you come up with using the non test methods of determining FTP? Did you do your hard effort riding the course in the bars? It make no sense that you can ride for 2.5 hours at the same NP that you can hold for 40 minutes with a break in the middle. Something is screwy.
The answers to those questions will help. When is the final test before the race scheduled for?
Trevor,
I'm new to power so the alternative methods of predicting my FTP would be a little harder for me to get acurate. If you don't have the outside data to help support the alternative methods then I personally would make some time in the schedule to get an accurate outdoor FTP.
I look at it this way if the half is your A race its worth the day off to get it right and not blow up race day. If you use the alternative methods you will want be conservative, overestimate could kill the run for your half.
I'm sure those with more experience with power will chime in.
Gordon
Trevor,
from the wiki, there are several other ways to get at your FTP without testing.
-If you've been doing FTP-type intervals outside, than the power distribution chart should be of some help.
-The mean maximal chart is often surprisingly accurate
-The 'gun-to-the-head' test is probably the most conservative.
If it were me, I wouldn't stress about squeezing in the test, unless you have another day in the schedule with a similar sort of workout where you could just swap it. At this point, take a good guess, and confirm with charts and a RR ride.
Mike
Hmmm, if I'm reading this correct, part of the problem your having is that you haven't had much "outside" time on the bike and so you don't really have much data to use the other methods of determining your outside FTP. Is that about right?
Generally speaking, an FTP is just another 2x20 workout. I'd probably find a workout already on the schedule close enough to that 2x20 and just turn it into an FTP. But get it done soon= you don't want to be doing an FTP inside of about 2-3 weeks of your race.
PS- I sorta have the same issue. I've done all my riding on the road bike this winter. I know my FTP on my TT bike is lower than the Road Bike. But I'm not gonna test on that TT bike (or even attempt to establish an FTP) until I've had several rides with her to get my glutes & quads re-acquainted with that position. With TOC taking nearly 2 weeks out of my training in May- that leaves me very little time to set the TT FTP before Eagleman in June. I'll likely guestimate it (if Rich were standing there with a gun to my head method). I've had a PM now for 2.5 years so I feel pretty confident that approach will be good enough for this B race.
@Chris G,
Yup, my hard effort on the course was almost entirely in the bars but there are some clues, the course was a lot hillier to me than what I have been riding around here recently, and I, like I suspect most everyone else, find it much easier to throw up high watts when there is a lot of climbing, --I think the climbing on the course pushed my Pnorm up quite a bit. Another thing to consider is that was outside (again with climbs), and today's test was a miserable 5:30am indoor trainer test in a basement with 3 other dudes and one fan, I was sweating buckets... not my preferred method of testing but at least if nothing else I got two wicked intervals in.
@Mike,
I'm going to take a much harder look at my mean maximal charts when I get home today, I have not been home to load my workout from this morning yet. They may yet reveal the truth. I don't think I've been doing many FTP-style intervals outside recently, but I'll hunt for those as well.
I was disapointed with the results of the test from this morning, but I also have to consider that I have not plugged it into WKO so I'm looking at my average power as recorded by my 310xt, not my normalized power... but the straight 310xt average power matches the 310xt average power from my last indoor test, so I guess I'll have to wait and see what WKO has to say. All and all, I think I can make a pretty educated guess if I look hard enough at WKO and just evaluate it from there in upcomming rides as everyone recommends. In part, my 3-week struggle to get this FTP test completed was just nagging me so much I wanted to share my lament with the world.
I can feel a little better though in comparison, one of my local training buddies who did the same workouts as me this weekend through today popped on his 2nd 20' interval today about 8' in and had to throw away the entire test, he couldn't keep it going. In comparison, breaking even wasn't half bad.
All,
Please read this new wiki post, On FTP Testing, just jammed out in response to this thread
Nice as usual Rich.
I will also admit that the only tests I have done in years are the few in the OS more to be a part of the group suffering and get a brutal workout in more than anything else. Looking at the charts etc I generally just confirm what I know regarding my FTP based on riding and as Rich suggests being aware of what I can hold from staring at the dial. FTP is certainly not an exact science and getting it with a 10-15 range is as good as I think you can ever do.
I typically end up following a hybrid of Rich's post and Nemo's advice. I can just feel when I'm due for an FTP bump and I can also see the data trending that way in WKO, but for some sick reason I like to test and prove it before I actually change my zones.
What typically ends up happening is that I am doing a normal workout with maybe a 2 x 20(4') or 2 x 15 or something and I feel great. I then turn the workout into an ad hoc 2x20(2') and see what happens. I would save have the time I get a bump and half the time I end up with the exact same FTP.
Eitherway it is a great workout and I much perfer the ad hoc FTT to a scheduled one because I approach it totally differently. When they are scheduled, I have time for negative thoughts and to dread doing the test.
Great wiki entry. That's a must read.
Mike
For me, I have my Tues climbing repeats, which are basically an FTP test every week. Yesterday Sawiris showed up:
#1: we sorta chittchatted for half of it (as much as I can chit chat on a hill with a guy I outweight by 30-35lb) then did our own thing (ie, he left me). Finished with about 283w.
#2: he gave me a 1' head start and I beat him to the top by about 5"...it was close and it sucked. I almost hurled. 305w
#3: solo and I did ~15 x 30" @ 375-400w, 1' off, but still at about 75% as I'm on a hill. Finished with 293w Pnorm for the interval.
So in the past I've said that my flat course FTP is 93% of this climb. That is, it's a 20' TT so I should do 95% to determine my FTP but since it's climbing I discount it by another 2%. But yesterday I figured that all I'm really doing these days is climbing anyway, I would call my FTP = 95% = 287w based on the 305w above. So I called it 285w, reset my numbers in WKO and on the Ergomo.
Ergomo has been set to a 275w FTP for the last 4-5wks so tonight with IF and TSS based on the new 285w...it should be interesting.
WERD!!!!!!
There tends to be this great emphasis that your fitness is best determined via FTP testing. More importantly, this becomes more distorted, imho, when the emphasis is placed on testing in order to determine your race plan. For race execution purposes, I still think and will always thinks that your 4-6hr MMP is a better indicator to use when establishing an IM race plan. However, as far as determining your general fitness for purposes of training goes, increases in FTP will be very evident in your day-2-day training. Go with it. If you miss an FTP test don't let it stress you out. If you feel you can ride harder then ride harder. You might find you get carried away but sporadic overreaching isn't a bad thing. I would actually encourage it.
As many others have suggested, there are unstructured things you can do in just about any workout to help you better estimate your FTP. Sure, these indicators are more difficult to identify in your first year or two when using a PM but I think it's important to learn how to develop these skills and not be solely dependent on a specific FTP test.
Thanks, Chris
To try and understand how to do this, I went to WKO+ and fooled around with my most recent Saturday ride, which went for about 4.25 hours, and had a fair amount of both climbing and steady riding in it, with some warm-up followed by harder riding for the first 1.75 hours. I set the MMP chart at linear, and used NP along the X axis. The end of the curve was 179 watts. My most recent IM (where I had a successful run off the bike) was NP at 184 watts, so there seems to be a bit or correlation there (I was at week 2/12 IM prep for CDA). 179 would give me an IF of .74 from my current FTP, and 70.5% of my FTP at the time of my last IM.
So would this be the correct way to use the MMP as a race execution guide/cross-check? Use NP, and see what the MMP is for the the full length of the ride? Should I come at it from another angle?
Al, yes, that's another method and likely to compliment the guidance that we already give. Always good to have multiple means to determine proper pacing.
To me, the key is to always actually get on the bike and execute whatever plan you have, locked in the aerobars. Even bad plans and poor bike fits look doable until about mile 70. 80+ is where you really learn something.
Expanding on this thread slightly, I had previously re-evaluated my FTP and arrived at a new estimated value of 257 (up from 239 my last indoor test) based upon my charts in WKO. At first I was somewhat skeptical because that may seem a big jump between tests, but all of my tests this year have shown similar considerable gains and more importantly I just did not feel like 257 was unreasonable from my experience and gut feeling out on the road so far this year.
Fast forward (or rewind perhaps) to last night where I entered and subsequently came in 2nd place in my first ever Time Trial, admittedly as a lowly Cat 5 but I was pleased all the same... missed first place by 3 seconds but console myself with the knowledge that I was riding aluminum training wheels, normal helmet, jersey, no shoe covers etc whereas the first place winner was fully decked out in TT-geek splendor. It's almost enough to make me consider shaving my legs and using all of that goofy stuff... almost
Anyway, after reading the alternate FTP guidance I know that one method is to use 95% of a 20' TT/interval, but this is dependent on the course being well known and repeatable. My course last night was not somewhere I ride often, and while it was mostly flat, it was also entirely miserable, cold, raining, and with a killer headwind on the way back in. It was only a 10 mile TT and I think I averaged somewhere about 30mph on the way out and a painful ~18mph on the way back in for a total of 26:36 with a normalized power of 284 watts.
Now 284 x 0.95 puts me at about 269-270 watts rather than 257, I'm wondering now if my WKO-chart estimate is too conservative or if headwinds require a similar deduction of watts in the same manner as hills? I will say though that my power did not reflect this, my power was tangibly higher on the way out with the wind at my back then it was on the way back in getting absolutely battered.
Trevor, well done! I wish I had those numbers. If it were me (take with a grain of salt), I would train at the higher FTP and see how it feels. If it is manageable, stick with it, if not drop down 5-10 watts. "Best predictor of performance is performance itself." Good luck man. Awesome stuff.
Dan