Priorities for a first time Ironman

donymo

I posted a question to Coach Patrick in last night's body comp session.  

He wasn't able to reply during it so he sent me a response via email and suggested I pose the question to the team.

This summer will be my first IM at Lake Placid.  I am almost 49 years old, 5'8" and weigh 178.  I feel like 160-165 is a good racing weight for me.  I am already working on improving my diet further to make this happen.  

Question:  How should I prioritize the following?   

Body Comp

Run Fitness/Durability

Bike Fitness

Swim Fitness

Asked another way...Am I better off with slightly less bike or run fitness and lower weight or a little more weight and better bike or run fitness?  

I'd especially like to hear your IM race experiences where maybe you raced with a few extra pounds and whether or not you felt it hurt your performance.  

 

Scott Giljum

Don, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive as you have posed the question. I think dropping to your appropriate race weight (which might be lower than you think by the way, I am 5'9-10" and mine is around 149 though when they first told me that number my eyes almost popped out of my head) will only enhance your run and bike speed as you will have to cart around less mass on race day. What I think you might be getting at though, is there is a point where you do drop too much weight and go below your race weight. At that point you start to lose power and are hurting yourself be your best race self. Basically I think in this case you can do both, but it needs to be measured.

As for racing with a few extra LB's, I can only say the following. While I have been lucky enough to not have to deal with that during my IM's, in other races where I am over my race target (read: I ate too much junk and am not exercising like mad where it will melt off quickly), I notice it, and not in a good way. I just don't feel as fast, which I know I am not, or at least I have to put in more effort to be as fast, which is more likely what I am dealing with. Just my thoughts.

Peter Greagg

Hi Don
I am almost 63 and almost your height (half an inch shorter). The last 2 IMs I have done, I have been just under 160. For me, that is too much!
I am currently 150 and compared to my previous weight, I feel like I have 'super powers' — my Vdot is equal to my all time high this century, and I am going faster at the same watts.
You should note that conventional wisdom has it that each pound of fat lost improves your IM time by 6 mins.
I hope to loose another 5 to 8 pounds by my A Race.
I lost that 10 pounds during the OS/Run Durability hack — doing all wkos in a fasted state — John Withrow had a couple of threads on this you may like to read (eg http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/15585/Default.aspx). Fitzgerald points out that if you exercise in a fasted state, the fat burning continues for hours afterwards.
The way I am looking at body comp is that it is a non-athletic way of boosting your performance — it just requires determination!
So my take is to work on your Body Comp, plus sbr.

rlh2000

Those things are tough to celebrate because usually when we have the most miles/best training, that in pushes us towards our lowest weight. My experience- I was low 120s for my first couple years when I started running. Got much faster when I dropped to 112ish, but of course I was running a lot more as well, which is part of why I was able to lose weight. The good thing about being light is your pounding on your joints less and you are more durable/injury-proof. I then had a rough patch in life, workouts diminished, and weight crept up to low 130s. I was slow, but also not working out as much. The bigger issue was probably that I kept having little injuries pop up, which I attribute to both the loss of a run base and more weight. Weight is definitely not everything in terms of run speed. I'm on my way to losing weight, but currently at 127, and my paces are pretty close to what they were at 112. Now, of course, I could most likely be much faster if I get back to that weight.

My advice is to not make a decision on what to focus on. Follow the training plan, fuel the workouts, don't eat crap. My guess is weight will largely take care of itself. If not, that is a low hanging fruit to get for IM#2.

donymo

@Scott and @Peter: I recently did a body fat test (water submersion) and came out with 140 pounds of lean body mass. If I lose no further lean body mass (and I wouldn't want to), are you saying 7% body fat is a realistic goal? Wow...that's almost 30 pounds!

Peter Greagg

@Don — 7% is very hard to achieve!

10 to 12% (IMO) is where you should be aiming.

That said, try and take the long view (0.5 to 1 pound a week) and cut out the crap we all eat, and make sure you are fuelling your recoveries.

I like Fitzgerald's book, "Racing Weight" — definitely worth a look is you haven't read it!

Scott Giljum

Don, 7% sounds unrealistic. Not that you couldn't get there, but maintaining that for any period of time would likely drive you crazy (and those around you more so, at least if you act like I do when I get down that low!). I would agree with Peter that 10 to 12 sounds more realistic, though I say all of this with a big caveat that I am not a nutritionist, nor do I play one on TV. I used the core diet folks to help me determine what the right number is and have worked around that idea and fueling strategy ever since. Your body I am sure is different than mine and might have a totally different number. All that said, there are two weights I focus on. One is race weight, which is exactly what it sounds like. I don't want to really see that number on the scale though until right before the race. The other is training weight. For me that is a bit higher (5-7 lbs) because I need a little bit more of that mass to help fuel all the training. Again, I am far from an expert, but this is what I have taken away so far. Hope it helps.

Al Truscott

Posted By Rachel Hawe on 09 Dec 2014 09:59 PM


My advice is to not make a decision on what to focus on. Follow the training plan, fuel the workouts, don't eat crap. My guess is weight will largely take care of itself. If not, that is a low hanging fruit to get for IM#2.

This would summarize my thinking exactly. It's very important not to skimp on replacing the glycogen you use up on a daily basis when training in order to try and lose weight more quickly - that way lies the abyss of overtraining. Also, when I started training (meaning, started running in order to do triathlons) I found I lost weight relatively painlessly, and it seemed directly correlated with how much running I did.

As we share body comp numbers, its critical we understand that, like resting  and maximum heart rates, its highly individual. Probably due to combination of body type, athletic history, and gut microflora. With that in mind, I'm 5'9' (used to be an inch or so taller), with a lean body weight of 131, and a weight which varies between 143 (too low) and 149 (too high). I feel best @ a BF% between 5-6%. 

Gordon Cherwoniak

Don,

Like others have said I'm not sure they are mutually exclusive.  The weight loss will benefit the run for sure.  For me I also used core diet and found that fueling properly I could lose weight in the OS quite easily.  I did not get to the IM last year due to life but previously I found losing weight harder when I started to ramp up the longer workouts.  I was just hungry all the time and maintained my weight.  So for me weigh loss is definitely a focus in the OS, push the OS plan and the bike watts and durability comes from the number of runs. 

Everyone is individual but I don't think at 160-165 you will have too many issues with losing muscle mass/power on the bike.  At 6' 0" maybe 5' 11" I was 160lbs when in shape 20 years ago.  This might be 170 now but really I should be able to get close to that number now.

I've raced LP at 196lbs in 2004 and it was still difficult on the hilly course with an 8 speed (not enough) gearing for my long slow distance training at the time.  I finished and walked a lot of the marathon as I had PF from overuse as well.  Fast forward I did the course at 220lbs with much more watts via EN but not enough focus on weight loss.  I shut it down on the bike, more nutrition/mental breakdown not the plan as I could have finished.  Get your watts/kg optimized as that climb back in to LP on the second loop is where it counts to execute. 

As for the run there is a point where the losing weigh will be detrimental but generally less weight is easier on the joints and will help with speed and injury prevention. 

So a few extra lbs will hurt your performance, but you don't want to just lose weight and not gain any OS speed or miss workouts.  Your week 1 OS test was 186 so 200-210 is attainable maybe more.  You want to push this further right and to the bottom.  To hit that 3.08 w/kg at your current weight that takes, 250 watts, at 166lbs 233 watts; at 160 lbs 224 watts, these calculations I did not show below. 

Weight


watts


w/kg


Weight


watts


w/kg


Weight


watts


w/kg






178


200


2.47191


166


200


2.650602


160


200


2.75






178


210


2.595506


166


210


2.783133


160


210


2.8875






178


220


2.719101


166


220


2.915663


160


220


3.025






178


250


3.089888


166


250


3.313253


160


250


3.4375

 

One other thing don't let Coach Rich see this post about thinking IM in the OS. 

morpheus

Hey Don,



The magic bullet is the diet. Minimizing the heavy stuff and the crap will allow you to have better workouts than ever before. You will notice that you feel lighter and quicker. Not a coincidence. You will notice that you will recover faster between hard workouts. You will sleep better. You will have fewer aches and pains. You will get faster, despite getting older.



And it will crossover to the Life side of this, too. Busy errand days, busy work days, busy family days, etc.... So, my bottom line is that the journey to a good body comp is the same approach that you would take towards improving your health even if there wasn't a race goal driving you to this.



I made some changes this year and saw results within 6 weeks. I won't hijack this thread with what I did but if you want more details, I can share with you here or phone or text or whatever.



I agree with what others have said...just stick to the plan. Do the wko's RnP have laid out for you. Be very cautious about adding more on your own just because you have the time or feel strong that particular day. It's a long haul. Let the coaches do the thinking for you and then just get out of the way.



That extra energy that you would be wasting on plan sabotage by overdoing workout frequency or volume can then be redirected towards nutrition and sleep.



Keep nutrition and sleep on par with S/B/R.



LP is 8 months away. Progress won't be a consistent slope. Perfection is delusion. Just keep pluggin' away and you'll be surprised with what happens. 

 

and, as far as chasing a number on a scale, ....proceed with caution.

MattAaronson

Sorry, very late to this but catching up on my reading over the holidays...

Don, I am 5'5" and typically 137-140. By BF as measured by a Withings scale is ~7ish %. I can get to 133-135 if I need to but it is hard. In my experience the weight doesn't take care of itself, but then again I come from weighting 205 less than 5 years ago and battling to get into good shape. These days in order to stay below 145 I have to REALLY WATCH WHAT I EAT. If I do a 100-mile ride it is not preceded by a mega-feast the night before nor is it followed by a monster meal. In fact if I fuel the ride correctly I will eat a protein bar afterward and a light meal and it will be a normal day, diet-wise.

I suggest you cut your calories substantially and see what happens. I suspect you will surprise yourself.