"5-hour power" - some really basic questions I have
There has been a lot of discussion of "5-hour
power" lately. Most of this has been in the context of the importance of
maximizing 5-hour power rather than FTP.
Is this a well-known concept that I seem to have missed, or
is it the general agreement with the John Withrow 2014 training approach? Can
someone please articulate crisply:
- what "5-hour power" means (definition and
measurement)
- importantly, how "5-hour power" relates to
ironman race execution, quantitatively
I am very keen to understand this because over the years
I've discovered that my ability to sustain moderately-high power is really
quite good, and I'm much better at longer distances than shorter. In other
words, my "mean maximal curve" is really flat. For example my highest
VDOTs are in marathons, followed by half marathons…my 5k and 8k VDOTs are
multiple points slower. On the bike I can do 4.5-hour rides @ IF 0.85 and race
a half-iron at IF 0.88 without boogering the run…but I will fail an 8x2'(2')
VO2 max interval workout 9 times out of 10, and my 2x20' FTP is always
head-and-shoulders higher than my 5/10/20 FTP.
Given the above and my goal to do an ironman-distance race
for the first time this year, something called "5-hour power" is
understandably interesting. However, I can also see it being very dangerous to an
inexperienced ironman athlete without some definition and guidance. For
example, I suspect at peak fitness last year I could ride IF 0.83-0.85 for 5
hours. Heck, I almost did this 4 or 5 times but stopped short by 30 minutes
because I was only training for half-iron distance. But this certainly doesn't
imply I should race an ironman at that wattage (right???). So someone needs to
help me understand how to take the 5-hour power and relate it to execution. Because
right now all of the EN state-of-the-art execution guidance is related to FTP.
But if you optimize training to maximize 5-hour power, what is the recommended %
of 5-hour power as a function of overall projected ride time, etc.
If we are going to be talking a lot about this metric, we
need to get a baseline for the discussion. It is too important to be just
casually "talking about it"…I think we're beyond that point.
I'd like to hear the coaches' views on this for sure.
Comments
First off - I've no idea what JW exactly did last season but as I understand "5-hour power" is that you just take the power-number for 5-hours from your Critical-Power-Curve as the target for you IM-race. Not sure if this is exactly how it's being done but I'm sure somebody else can shade more light on that approach.
The thing I'm a lot more aware of is your overall situation as a pretty lightweight guy having some serious running abilities but the absolute output-power on the bike is actually pretty far off from were the big-boys play.
I recently had a very interesting discussion with a friend who is almost in the exact same situation like you (except he's 5 years older). Athletes like you are able to ride at a much higher IF on longer distances than heavier/bigger guys pushing +50W more on average!
I've no proof for this but I guess it has something todo with the total amount of work (kJ) being done ...
Reading your IFs of >0.82 for 5 hours are absolutely astonishing BUT I really think that your FTP setting is just too low so your actual IF would be a bit lower even your power is the same. Have you ever tried doing a 1h-TT for finding your FTP?
Just to give you a rough estimate what kind of riders are abel to ride at IF 0.85+ for 5 hours look here -> http://home.trainingpeaks.com/athlete/workout/GSV47WX337TIOKIXGJAOJJPPZE
I don't know of ANY better developed Diesel Engine (ultra-cyclists) on two wheels at the moment so THIS IS THE BENCHMARK!
Are you lifting weights and/or do strength training especially for your thighs?
I asked TJ Tollakson about this. Quick question, quick answer, but it registered with what I was looking for. I asked him how he trains his 2 hr power and 5 hr power. He broke it down like this...
We all know to get our 60' bar (FTP). Then we spend weeks working at 95-100% of that bar in intervals that usually add up to 2/3 of the time that the bar represents. 4 x 10' or 2x 20' or whatever. Basically, 40' of workout to improve our 60' bar.
He applies that same rationale to his 2hr and 5hr power training sessions. Going 90% for the 2hr Power workouts and 80-85% for the 5hr Power workouts. The early weeks have 4-5 min recovery in between his intervals (he said he actually prefers 15' to keep his interest) and then decreases that down to 2-3 min as the weeks get closer to the race.
So, 5hr Power would be a main set of 200 min (2/3 of 300 min) in intervals of 10 to 15 to 20 min with 4-5 min recovery. Using the 20 minutes set just for the easy math, that's 10 intervals of 20' (say 5' recovery). Obviously, this makes for a long workout once you've added a short warmup and cool down.
What I failed to ask him was how far out from a race does he start this type of training b/c he also suggested that he works shorter high intensity sessions earlier in the year.
Since I'm going to be focusing on some HIM's over the next few years, I'm going to see if I can get the green light from the coaches to sub the 2hr Power version of this for my Saturday rides building up to my HIM's.
Just thought you'd be interested in this since TJ clearly is one of the beasts of the game.
I can imagine that to be very true. At my peak FTP (2x20 measurement) a ride at .83 is only 212 watts. A ride at 0.8 is only 204.
A bit off topic but interesting that you mention that. My thighs seem to be naturally quite large. If you look at me at a running race you will see I don't look like a runner. In fact I think there is a lot of weight stuck in my thighs since when I try to drop weight I find it really tough to get below around 136-138 lb. I'm only 5'5" tall so you can imagine that I should be able to get down to high 120's although I have never even come close. My BF scale FWIW regularly tells me 7% so I don't think I'm walking around with a lot of extra. Really I think that is my thighs. I have trouble shopping for suits!!
Chris , glad you mentioned TJ because he is exactly who I thought of when I saw this thread. Below are some snippets from TJ in a ST thread.
Lots of good stuff in here if ya wanna read the whole thread.
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=5215107;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
1) What does a typical IM build week look like for you? I ride about 300 miles (with Saturday) being a long hard IM ride, swim 20-30k, and run 50 miles with Sunday being a long IM run.
2) How did you get your bike power to that level - volume or intensity (or both)? You can really only race an Ironman around 80% or less of your Functional Threshold Power (FTP) so if you want to raise your FTP, do lots of VO2max intervals to 20 min FTP intervals. Once you FTP is higher, focus on working on your 5 hour power doing long rides at the proper 80% intensity or so.
If you are training your FTP you would likely do a lot of VO2max intervals up to 20 min intervals at or near your FTP. To train your 2 hour or 5 hour power, you would do intervals at roughly 90% of your FTP for your 2 hour power and 80% for your 5 hour power. These intervals should be similar to how you train your FTP. If 2x20 min is a standard set (I actually prefer 2x15 min), for training your FTP that is an interval of 1/3 of your FTP and a total work time of 2/3. I would tend to work at a rate slightly lower than 1/3 and 2/3 but something in that range.
I won't divulge any specific workouts because that is not fair to my coach, Cliff English, unless he wants to post them on here. As I said earlier, training for 70.3's involves lots of intervals at 90% of your FTP and training for an Ironman involves lots of intervals at 80% of your FTP. If you do a 5 hour ride with 3 hours of intervals at 80% of your FTP, you will be a stud.
1- For your 360 FTP, do you use a one hour test or one of the estimated protocols? I don't actually do a FTP test at all. I keep it at 360 because I don't train to raise my FTP and I've certainly had it higher than 360 but at the moment I don't feel I could do more 360 for an hour. I have a pretty good understanding of my abilities based on how I perform my short intervals and how well I can perform on group rides like the shootout in Tucson. If I am putting out 360 NP for 45 min of the shootout, then that is pretty close to my FTP.
2- Do you ever perform a submax (or max) 2 hour test? I only do a 2hour test when racing a 70.3, no actual power test and certainly not all out.
My guess for you Matt..... Since you can ride 2:12hr HIM in the vicinity of .90 .... You could ride 4.5hr @ .80 on a course like FL , TX , AZ .... for a course like IMWI you will probably be @5hrs and IF .77-.78.... These are numbers NOBODY should try for until they KNOW via training they can do... But you and I both know that is where you are!
FWIW ... the TJ thread above he rode IMMT in 4.5 hrs at .80 FTP calc was 360
Good thread.
I learned a lot about what Tim points out below last year racing both IMTX and IMAZ with Tim at the forefront.
I quickly learned it is one thing to do a 5/20 test, set an FTP and another thing to execute against that FTP at 75-80% for 5 hours.
For one, it takes a lot of practice just to focus that long as well as ride outside and negotiate all the distractions, fueling along the way.
Practice is your best shot, going out, as Tim says, for multiple long rides, or Race Rehearsals and dialing it in.
SS
First of all, you are not not normal... (but who amongst us is...). Most people , myself included, produce their highest vDot during a 5k run test and dropping a point or 2 for a 10k, then another point for 13.1, then another point or 2 for 26.2. Similar for me on the bike, I can crush VO2 sets all day, but I have a bigger drop off as I go out the curve. I agree with Stefan that you should try a 1-hr TT to get your "real FTP" and take note of how that compares to your 5/10/20 tested FTP. In the future you could do the 5/10/20 and then swag it up or down according to the ratio from your 1-hr TT test.
I'll also add one more thing about you specifically before I attempt to take a stab at your actual original post. You will not be the "normal" first time Ironman. You are super fast at the HIM distance and you are a ~3-hr marathoner. You have the mental fortitude to "thoughtfully and methodically" train like a madman amongst a busy travel schedule. And you have been inside the Haus learning and contributing for many years. So you already have more "Ironman experience" than 90% of the IM field. But 2 things are important here, you are not competing against that 90%, you could compete for a KQ on your first attempt, so your competition is the top 1%. Also, no matter how trained or how thoughtful you are, the Ironman distance is simply "different" than anything you have done. And your body does weird things 15+ miles into a run after 2.4 miles of swimming exhausts your stores, then you ride (with intense concentration) for 112 miles, then run a marathon. At your speed, you can almost blow through a HIM with no nutrition and going balls out for the entire race. Ironman's are simply a different beast...
I certainly did not invent "5-hour" power. Tim Cronk made it's usefulness sink into my mind during a thoughtful conversation early last spring. And it actually jived very well with Coach P's "Run Durability Plan" that was being developed and tested on a bunch of us that met certain experience/execution criteria... I'll try to summarize why it made sense for "me" and why it is not such a stretch compared to EN's long tested philosophies. If you follow the EN plans and philosophies to the letter of the law, you will first test your FTP in the OS, then you will do progressively longer intervals at that FTP, then re-test. Lather, rinse, repeat. Then during the build phase for your IM, you will do progressively longer intervals at certain percentages of that FTP during the long rides and try to push a percentage of FTP during your ABP rides. Then, ~5 or 6 weeks out from your race, you will do a Race Rehearsal at a percentage of FTP from the grid on the power webinar (this is just a starting point), with 60 mins of running afterwards. Then 2 or 3 weeks later, you do another RR that a slightly different effort level than the first to help you triangulate in on the proper race effort defined as "goal watts" which can then be back solved into a % of FTP (which should roughly correlate to ~70% of FTP give or take a few %). So... Your goal bike race effort (if executed properly) according to EN is actually a function of what you learned during your RR's and not simply a % of FTP.
So all I did was take that concept of dialing in a race effort during your RR, and do it over and over and over again during the meat of the IM training plan . But keep in mind, I was going way past (from a volume and intensity prescription) what you should be doing under the "regular" EN plans (please don't try this if you are not a VERY experienced triathlete with a VERY understanding spouse). Even more than you should be doing under the run durability plan. But what I did was A LOT of "5 hour" (or longer) rides and took note of the Average NP I would put out for the ride. Then I had a benchmark of what I did so the next one I tried to beat it. I found that during an Ironman (or a long bike ride for that matter) that I would be fine for 3-4 hours, but then in the 5th or 6th hour, things would just start to hurt. My neck would hurt, or my back would hurt, or my quads would get "thick", or I wouldn't feel like eating certain things, etc. So part of all of the really long rides for me was "positional fitness", but the bigger part was knowing exactly how much power my legs could put out over 5-5.5 hours as this was how long I expected to be on my bike during the race.
When it came time for my "A-Race", being on my bike for ~5.5 hours was "old hat" for me. And I knew exactly how to adjust and modify things on the fly. I knew exactly what the power I was putting out meant. And I had a TON of confidence that my legs would have what they needed to run a REALLY GOOD marathon giving that I was riding at ~35W LOWER than what I had done for 5.5 hours before. But I also knew not to push harder. It truly was the easiest long ride I had done all year, so when I got off my bike it was like I had done exactly nothing but a light warmup beforehand.
So for me "5 hour power" was simply the Average NP I put out for any ride of 5 or more hours. I kept "Average NP" as one of the cells on my Edge 510 and used it as a carrot to always beat my previous effort. I also used the last hour of any long ride to play games to get that NP number higher than what it was. This forced me to "Go Hard" after I was already 4 hours into a ride (not so different than Tim's FOP thread where you suggested running hard after long bike workouts, this is just riding hard at the end of them). I started to love the last 1-1.5 hours of any ride because this was my "go time". During the occasional long rides when I rode with stronger friends, I always dusted them in the last hour (even guys that were way faster than me). During my "A-Race" I was happy to see the 4-hr mark on my computer because I knew that was the point that my competition would start to fade and this was when I would start to put time into them. This was waaaay different than my first 4 IM's where I started to get miserable at that 4 hour point and started to wonder when the "stupid bike ride" would eventually be over. Much of that can probably simply be attributed to the fact that I was 3-4 yrs into my triathlon career, but I do believe that much of it was the focus in training on those "5hr power" numbers and workouts.
I don't have a lot of meat to add to this conversation, but I would like to provide a small bit of EN history regarding "5 hour power".
As you all may know, the genesis of our TSS charts for half and full Iron came in 2007/8, when RnP and a few of their then members collected a bunch of race data correlating TSS to IF to time of bike leg, and produced the nice little color coded chart we use to program our bike on race day. Among them was Chris Whyte ("lakerfan"), who always had a lot of thoughtful things to say on race execution and riding with power.
When I first joined EN in 2009, and began to learn about race-day bike execution, I glommed on to a post Chris made when he said that instead of the chart (which he helped create), he used the Training Peaks (WKO+) Mean Maximal Power curve to establish his target for bike power in an IM. Specifically, looking at his power at the five hour point on that graph.
That made tons of sense to me, so I started evangelizing it whenever I the topic came up. Specifically, that number is the highest NP over a five hour period one has demonstrated on rides recorded in TP. For most of us, that would usually happen during the race rehearsals. So in simple terms, it's just a quick way of using the RR to lock in a race day target for NP.
Now, should one be specifically training to five hour power? Of course! That's what IM training is all about. The TJ regimen described above is the pros' version of what we are already doing in EN during our Saturday rides in the IM build. We do 20-30 minute intervals at "race pace plus", e.g.
"WU: 20-30' @ 65-70%/Zone1 to 2/Easy.
MS1: 8 x 25' (5') @ 75-80%/High Zone 2 - Low Zone 3/Upper Steady.
MS2: Remainder of ride time is @70-75%/Zone2/Steady. In aerobars, no surges, constant power, etc.
WD: 10' Easy spin. "
That's 200-250 minutes in intervals just above race day effort - in line with the 2/3rds recommendation for a 5.5-6.5 hour time trial.
My conclusion here:
Like Al, pointed out, our plans are not too unlike what this top pro is suggesting.
I'm going out on a limb but I'd guess that the biggest difference between our season plan and an approach like TJ's (a PRO, nonetheless) is the desire to get the most out of our training, to peak at the appropriate race, with the real world time available for most of us AG'ers, bound by family and job.
thanks for the question and the responses.
I still have a ways to go in getting a good ironman bike. last season, after processing various inputs, I aimed for five hour bikes to be 5-10 watts higher than race goal (NP). my last race, iron tremblant, I had the best NP ever for me. though not a time improvement for various possible reasons.
so what will I be doing different in the lead up to Iron Texas this coming May? continue to refine things as I get inputs from discussions like this. put some longer Saturday bikes in the last 4-6 weeks of the OS. during the 10 week iron build, try to do the five hour Saturday bikes at an even higher margin above race goal. and try to add a couple more five hour Saturday bikes during the iron build.
so to your question. how to translate your five hour practice NP to an ironman bike power race goal? I guess a matter of guestimating based on all the inputs (how long you plan to be in the water for the race, ftp, five hour practice power, run goals, etc.)
Awesome thread. Just absorbing....
I just want to make sure I am giving a crisp answer to these questions:
1. I propose that "5-hr power" as a metric be defined as the watts which appear at the five hour point on the TP/WKO+ Mean Maximal Power Curve.
2. I believe that 5 HP number, read two weeks before an Ironman, can be used for "most" AG athletes as their target NP for their bike leg. "Most" means those who are riding in the range of 310-400 minutes for the bike leg. Those who are faster could use a shorter time on the MMP curve; those who are longer, might consider the 6HP.
TP/WKO+ doesn't care what kind of ride you are doing to generate that 5HP number. It could be a 5+ hour ride at a steady power level (VI in the range of 1.02-1.04), like a race rehearsal, or it could be an EN "Saturday Ride" which includes race pace plus intervals and recovery periods, as long as the ride takes longer than 5 hours. I don;t know this for a fact, but I bet both types of rides generate 5 HP #s very close to each other.
If it helps you to think you are doing something special in training to improve that 5 HP, go for it. But I'd bet that whatever you end up doing will be an awful lot like what our coaches have us doing in the last two months before an IM.
All,
Thanks for the great discussion! A few notes from this thread and from some other things:
Later this year PnI will create a comprehensive Race Prep Phase landing page in the wiki, or elsewhere, were we'll park a lot of RP Phase resources for you. Think of the Race Execution resources we have consolidated but this will before resources related to the RP phase.One of these will be a more comprehensive explanation of the proper determination for IM watts for pacing. A quick sketch of this would be:
A few other notes:
For me, my most valuable data points are the bagillion IM RR's I've done over the years and my IM race-day bike file, together with my corresponding fitness at the time. From these data points I know I have a very narrow range of 212-217w on race day that have worked for me in the past. Of course, I'll work this year to push those upwards. Many of you reading this post don't have that depth of historical data...yet. But hopefully my notes above tell you that we'll improve our processes here over the next several months so that you gather and get a better understanding of your data.
The longest training ride Christoph Strasser (3x RAAM winner and record holder) had 2014 before RAAM was 7h! In his last interview he said that there is not much value in such long rides for him (and don't forget what he is doing!!).
That ^^^^^ is terrific to hear. We all 'know' this to be the case but I think we 'fear' not doing more.
@Rich - Those are great ideas because it sounds like it should allow each athlete to hone in on their own unique and ideal goal number. I would love to be able to look at my curve, pin point a number, try it out, and adjust accordingly. My concern with that is my smaller numbers of really long rides actually logged to make that curve accurate. I have a ton of 1.5 hr to 4 hr rides, at all types of paces. And, due to tech difficulties, many were never logged or lost.
So, I'd be curious as this moves forward, as to how you compile all of your data. 2 bike profiles in indoor and outdoor training? Wait, never mind, you don't have a trainer cuz you don't need one
Anyways, looking forward to learning more about this.
And, won't be any difference in the approach to the HIM races, right?
Now, you've motivated me to get my WKO+ back up and running smooth.
John W, did I read right that you did your race at 35 LESS than your best 5HP?
@WJ, yes. I raced IMMT at 35W LESS than my best 5hr power. I did a lot of long rides last yr and tried to go as hard as I could for most of them. I was targeting about ~15-20W below my best 5hp for my race goal watts but just wasn't "feeling it". I didn't try to force it and ended up with a ~25min IM run PR so I definitely had the run legs to do it after such an easy bike.
That's the beauty of the 5hr power number was two-fold. 1) it put a ton of fitness (actual and positional) into my legs getting a reliable number. 2) I knew exactly the effect my ride would have on my legs which gave me a ton of confidence for the run.
Thanks for bumping this thread. As I mentioned in the other thread, I fleshed a lot of this out in my webinar a couple weeks and am now in the process of formalizing that via a detailed wiki post, tweaks to our execution guidance, calculators we have running around out there, etc. Maybe we can use this thread to park 5hr Power-related comments and discussions.
Thoughts banging around in my head:
My point is that between my historical IM numbers, my goals, and lots of experience with long rides like this, the magic number I want to build myself up across the summer is about 229-232w Pnorm for 100-112 miles. Then, like JW did in his race, I'm going to start with a wattage plan (more guide than goal) and adjust that to how I feel and what my HR is doing. I imagine that everything will settle out on race day at 219-22w Pnorm.
However, I'm having / seeing some difficulties in this 5hr power approach that I'm sure EN athletes will eventually encounter as well:
In the end, I want everyone to have the expectation that all of this is truly an art, not science. I think a disservice we've done in the past is to create the impression and tools that it's as simple as jamming an FTP into a calculator, getting a number, slapping that number and some other numbers on your stem and riding around the course on race day. The "system" I'm working to develop will require you to read, think, pay attention to your body during several long rides, and then on race day race humbly, not simply targeting a number as a goal vs a guide.
Not JW but I can tell you how I do it:
"That's great, but I can't lay on the couch all day!"
Yep, I get that. However, I do think it's valuable to just fookin' hammer a century one or more times, just to see what you can do. 5hrs is 20mph average, 4:30 is 22.2mph, and 5:00 for 112 is 22.4mph...all numbers I know by heart. Set a goal, go out a little easy in the first 20-30mi, then dial it up and crush yourself in the last 20mi. Bring friends a long and TTT it.
In short, the ability, and experience to go long AND hard (ride 100mi like it's 80 and bring a cell phone in case you need someone to scrap you out from under a bush) is valuable. You'll learn a ton and race day will feel very, very easy by comparison.
Rich, I'm in a slightly different place on art vs. science. One of the amazing things about EN's historical execution guidance is that it didn't rely on people to be artists. It made (and still makes) made fantastic execution available to people who might (and probably WOULD) otherwise exercise poor judgment on race day...forcing people to ride a "should split" not a "could split" via compelling and prescriptive guidance.
I think trying to harness the power of the team's data to put some "science" behind 5-HP may be a good idea. As such I have started another thread to discuss the potential of such an analysis: http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/19159/Default.aspxThat's great, thanks for picking this up.
But I can tell you that, in the end, Jimmy is going to say "my data and rides appear to say I should ride at 172-178w Pnorm. What should I do?"
And 99% of the time I'll say 172w and if you under biked you got an entire marathon to make it up. My point is that I want us to formalize the informal process (?) of simply paying attention to a range of inputs in training and racing and then not thinking twice about changing a number during the race.
Again, guide not goal
Rich already answered this and his is similar, but a little different than mine. I crushed my bike all OS. Then I did 2 bike camps before the main IM build that added progressively more time/distance/TSS for each one. By the time I got to the IM build I had tremendous fitness, that I built on during the IM build. I always tried to have at least 1 FTP interval session (maybe 2) during the week. My long run(s) were almost always on Thursdays. My Saturday ride was almost always longer than the Sunday and almost always ~20W higher. I spent an hour in my Normatec Recovery boots almost every single day of the week (often with ice packs in them). I used my MarcPro almost daily. I ate super healthy/clean. I supplemented like I was a pharmacist. I slept 8hrs every night (almost no exceptions). I saw a PT/Chiro for ART/Graston/Adjustment weekly without exception. I swam ~3-4 times a week in my "unheated" pool. Basically I treated myself like a pro triathlete who happened to also have a ~60hr per week job that paid the bills. This was not something I did without prior consultation with my wife. And not something I would recommend that 95% of the peeps inside EN do. It really depends on what your goals are.
I also had a few "blow-up" weeks. i.e., one long run which I suffered through at like ~9:30 per mile vs my normal ~8:00/mi pace. I took a few days off after this. i.e. listen to your body.
Regarding the data analysis... I simply had every file automatically upload into TrainingPeaks (and Strava, and Garmin). I then updated a simple training Excel spreadsheet with my data from the workout (SB&R). I used whatever the NP was for the ride and added it to my spreadsheet (often this was 5.5 or 6 hrs). I would also for fun, drag over the graph and find the max 5hr NP for the ride which would usually cut off the warm-up (I almost never "cooled down"). I would just take mental notes of how this built over the ~12 or so weeks of my build. I also took note of what my Saturday NP was vs. my Sunday NP and tried my best to minimize the drop-off. My goal for every long ride was to beat the previous long ride's NP which I had memorized. Then the goal for the next day ride was to limit the fall-off.
A good rule of thumb would be to try to race at ~85-95% of your max 5hr power number (depending on your expected race time). i.e. higher if under 5hrs, lower if over 5:30 expected split. You'd also need at least 6-8 data points if you wanted to use this with any kind of reliability. For instance, if you only have your 2 RR's that were over 5hrs, then use them to help fill out your information set, but look at the normal ~67-74% of FTP charts as your starting point.
This all makes sense. I have always made an effort to avoid those "extra hard" bike rides because I was afraid of blowing up my "bigger picture" plan during training. This is especially true as I get closer to race day (5-6 weeks out, which is where I am now from IMMT). BUT, thinking more about this idea for the future, I really like it and here is why. First, I like the idea of getting a clearer picture of what I am capable of riding during an IM or HIM, which of course I can follow up with a good run. For me personally, I find a bit of a disconnect of the standard formula of % of FTP, although I realize that I am most likely in the minority. Second, I like the idea of the 112 miles on race day feeling "easier" than what I'd be accustomed to in training. Again, I am too close to my race at this point to screw around with this too much this time around, but I will keep this in the back of my mind for the future. Although, Coach R and JW's recovery times after crushing themselves weekly might not go over as well in my house
.
Thanks for sharing all the great knowledge!
Circling back to this after rereading Chris' notes about from TJ and the successive discussion on RPP intervals. My notes:
As I said, the last couple weeks I've done a 100mi sorta TT and a 112mi "just ride at about 'stoopid Ironman' pace." This weekend I'm going to pick a different course, one more conducive to 20-25' pulls at 80-85%, and see how this shakes out compared to the two rides above. Much like how JW said he benchmarked his rides from week to week, my benchmark is about 225-230w Pnorm. That means after about a 30' warmup, I'll be on the gas for 20-25' at a time at ~250w, off the gas for 5', repeat. Oy...
Fook...the things I do in the name of experimentation
@Al - Two questions:
I have used the Mean Maximal chart as input for calculating all of my recent races. Coggin is fond of writng "The best predictor of performance is performance itself;" I think that is the basis of the new modeling that is rumored to be included in the mythical WKO 3.0
@CoachR - My question was along the lines of "which data should we put on the Maximals Chart to determine our 5 HR target?" Is that what you answered or were you referring to what we look at on the ride? I have lots of buddies that I ride with that I have to apply the jackass factor to the numbers when we ride together!
But I was curious about developing the target. On my current Maximals chart (Golden Cheetah) I have the ability to look at either Pavg or NP. I was wondering what you guys suggest that we use on the chart to develop our targets? I have been using Pavg, because it is a real number, but I typically look at the NP chart to see what I have paid for at 5 hours too.