Please sell me on an "advanced" trainer
I am a total luddite by now, it is amazing how that has happened in the past 5-7 years. Anyway...
I have been riding a Kurt Kinetic fluid trainer with the large add-on flywheel since 2010. I think the power curve is really realistic and the thing is bulletproof. It has not resistance control (but then again, neither does the outdoors), and I get power data from my Quarq as I would while training outside or racing.
I need another trainer for another location. So now I look around and everyone is buying advanced trainers with resistance control and connectivity. People are raving about the KICKR to an unbelievable extent.
But why do I need a trainer like that? I watch TV and not Trainer Road output. When I do intervals I go up a gear or two and target power based on my powermeter output. Is the controlled resistance really that much better in terms of workout quality or realism in the feel?
Thoughts appreciated.
Comments
I watch TV and don't pay much attention to my TR output either... which is why the KICKR is great. You don't have to pay attention to trying to ride to a certain power and tracking with the TR power line. The KICKR (in ERG mode) only produces the prescribed watts. You can pedal at 60 rpm or 80 rpm or 100 rpm and it's still going to stay at the same wattage.
NO
Its really a question of need vs. want.... We have a CT and a LeMond... I like the ERG mode of the CT but I absolutely love the way the LeMond feels with direct mount (no rear wheel).... The CT is a dinosaur , has always been over-rated IMO .... LeMond is awesome but doesnt offer all the features and its LOUD!
From what I have read , if Budget really isnt a concern the Kickr is an absolute no-brainer and that is the way I will go next!
Kickr gets a lot of buzz but the Power Pro is a few buck cheaper and is rated as well as the Kickr. The downside to the PowerPro is that you have to choose between a bluetooth model or ANT+ whereas the Kickr offers both in one model. The PowerPro attaches just like your KurkKinetic so (IMHO) it's a bit easier for getting the bike on and off (which I do a lot because I use the trainer as my bike stand as well). With the Kickr you will have to remove the rear wheel each time you put it on the trainer. For some folks that's not a big deal- for me, it's just a PITA.
My journey: In the (very) late 90s, I started doing tris, and got a Tacx trainer - simple, stable, and fit the bill for the relatively unsophisticated needs I had. Mid 2000s, sprung for a CompuTrainer, mainly due to the hype about the ecosystem it had built up around it, and all the extras (like spinscan for assessing L/R balance). I bought several Real Course videos, played with the "Metal Man" as a proxy opponent, and delved into the 1000's of cycling and tri courses available. But I was swamped in wires, confusing software, and an excess of options.
The, I joined EN in 2009, and my life became so much simpler. I quickly discovered I could pre-program my interval workouts via an add on program from TP ("Erg"), and the CT would simply force me to pedal at the prescribed power, or quit. 3x a week in the OS, and once a week all year, I gave myself over to the CT/Erg combo as my taskmaster. I kept a small group of modules (warm-up, cool down, Steady State, FTP, VO2 max) and tinkered with them prior to each wko. This forced me to spend a few minutes before each workout doing some granular thinking about just what I was going to do that day, as well as keeping me on task with no excuses during the workout. Still, the wires, the need for a PC (I'm a Mac guy since '84), and the archaic, cryptic software left me unfulfilled.
Then, one of those wired connections started to falter, This had happened once before, costing me $250. (I fixed another myself). So I used that as an excuse to get my Kickr. Same benefits, none of the headaches; and no wear/tear on the rear wheel/tire, as well as ANT+ and BT compatible.
Notice I've said nothing about Trainer Road - there are a number of software options available for both CT and Kickr which do the same thing, at least as far as getting the EN workouts done.
Bottom line for me, as a selling point: I'm lazy and the ability to program resistance for a full interval workout allows me to simply focus on the workout itself, not how to get to and maintain the effort level - no shifting, no playing with anything during the workout, just do the work. Saves my brain, which apparently I'm doing my best to disrupt via ski and cycle crashes.
for me the biggest perk of the "smart trainer" that hs not been mentioned is the ability to train lower caednces at higher watts. I like intervals of 35-40rpms at HIM intensity as a strength training excercize.
You dont "need it". My LBS let me borrow one though and I never looked back.
Power on different units will always be a bit different. Even from one power tap to another there be variability within 1-2%. At 200 watts that could be an 8 watt swing. Consistent measurement of power is way more important than the correctness of absolute power on a given day.
Another big variance in power is meter placement. Garmin Vector measured at the pedal will read a consistently higher number at all efforts levels (i.e. - the spread is constant and does not grow as watts increase) than a powertap measuring at the hub. You get drive train loss of perhaps as high as 5 watts.
That being said, kickr and powertap both measure at the rear cassette and when properly calibrated, within their specific margin of error, should be more similar than Kickr versus Vector.
Personally, I would not test on kickr just to start using it. Guess at number that feels right and then try a workout. If you smash it and feel great, the number is too low. If you can't finish the workout, it's too high. After 2-3 workouts you should have it dialed in.
Lastly, yes. I think the consensus is most people make more power outside. It's just more natural. Better feedback from your environment leads to an easier mental task.
If you dial-in the wattage into the KICKR, how can you overachieve a workout if you're having a great day? What about if you're just a few watts short one day?
In those cases do you need to use the software to tweak the resistance up or down to whatever you might be able to achieve?
Actually, come to think of it, how do you test? Is it like a treadmill...you keep cranking it up until you cant hold it any higher??
Sorry, these are REALLY basic question, but as you can tell I've never used a trainer without a "manual" resistance function that was dictated by your own legs fighting an impeller in some fluid!!
I haven;t used all of the apps which can control the Kickr, but the ones I have used allow "on the fly" adjustment of preset wattage.
To test, I use the TR/EN test program, which switches from resistance mode to a "standard" mode (like how you currently use the Kurt) for the test intervals.
I;ve learned over the years that FTP results are highly specific. Meaning, the bike, the rider, the power meter, the locale (outside vs inside), even the temp all matter. There is simply no comparing one mode to another. Case in point - all last season, both indoors on my CT and outdoors on the road, same bike, same PowerTap, my FTP was pretty steady @ 210-220. Took 2-3 weeks off, my FTP was still 211.8 in my first test on the CT. It then broke down, I got my Kickr, and my first test on that (same bike, without the rear wheel/PT, of course) was 237. And even that might be low, as my HR was lower than me earlier tests. Go figure.
As others have said, the important thing is consistency in your training and measuring systems. Compare only apples to apples, and ignore all the oranges and peaches and pears until its time to eat them.
To answer the specific question,"would I have a different FTP with my PT, on the road outside as the FTP on the Kickr?" ... Yeah, but so what? Change any variable, and you should assume your FTP *may* be different. You should re-test or re-evaluate as needed when training or racing under different circumstances.
Thanks all. It begins.
I bet in less than a month you'll move the Kickr to wherever you determine you "primary" training locale is...
Re Garmin/ANT+ >> Kickr uses open source ANT+, don;t know about your exact model, but my Garmin Fenix2 picks up the signal from the Kickr no problem. Radio signals are flying all over the place: HR strap via ANT+, cadence sensor via BT & ANT, Power, speed, from Kickr, all of it getting picked up by my Joule 2.0, the TR app via my computer/garmim usb dongle, and my watch getting power, cadence, HR, speed, etc via both BT and ANT+. I can no longer figure it all out, but it all seems to work just fine, and I end up with triple redundancy to analyze, and then send to Garmin connect, strava, Garmin TC, WKO+, etc, etc
The second decade of the 21st century continues to blow my mind. I grew up listening to Lone Ranger on the radio, then marveled @ B&W TV
yes you need a kickr. folks have mentioned many of the conveniences below.
no wasted time fixing blown tires and tubes. this is huge. (and yes I know about trainer tires, etc.)
quick and easy set up,
I only use my iPhone and the basic Wahoo program. no computers or cords to mess with. usually use Erg mode. Sim mode works well for testing. set slope % and go.
just simple, reliable, with very quick set up.
our former teammate Sukhi has a Kickr if you wanted to facebook message him.
download Wahoo Fitness app on your phone and you can get an idea of the operation.
I have a CT and have had one for 8 years. it is awesome, keeps you honest. workouts are great. I have hooked up with trainer road. Open TR, find the work-out for the day from EN and hit start. After calibrating a few minutes in when the wheel and flywheel have warmed up it just goes and does its thing. If I am feeling great I can increased the watts, if I am hurting, can decrease (based on %) and then keep riding and get in a work out. There is no cheating. Then I can watch whatever movie, TV show, etc and not worry about time of intervals, or anything else. I just worry about how much my legs are hurting. Don't have a Kickr so can't really comment on that.
get one, you won't be dissapointed. two downsides - 1) harder to move around then a small foldable trainer and 2) I have a separate wheel and tire for the CT, but I suspect you might already have one of those for whichever trainer you are using currently.
1. The "feel" was off...the resistance just felt too artificial
2. The power data was really far off any other device I have. I have used both a Powertap and a Quarq and in fact occasionally use them at the same time. I have owned multiple quarq units over time and used several powertap hubs. They don't read the same, but they're in the same ballpark. When I'm doing z4, maybe the quarq says 258 and powertap says 254. When I upgraded my quarq maybe the power went up or down by a few watts. Whatever. But I've been sitting at an FTP of 250-255 for about 3 years and my RPE and HR are well calibrated. If my powermeter is up or down by a few watts its up or down by a few watts. But not more than a few. The Kickr, on the other hand, seems to think I'm the stud I'd love to be on the bike. Z4 at 275 watts. Cool. Except it's not even close to right. According to the Kickr I did 2x15 @275 watts with my HR barely above where it usually is for z3. Not even close. If I wanted "virtual power" or some other similar concept then I can get that for a fraction of the cost. Also there is the practicality of needing a baseline...i.e. multiple FTP tests to have a Kickr FTP and a powermeter FTP. With a Quarq and 2 head units I could knock out both numbers with a single test, but this is a different bike from my the one on which my quarq lives (it is in an apartment I keep for weekdays in another city).
3. Although #2 would have been a deal-killer on its own for me personally, I realize that something "consistent" although anchored to a different baseline would be acceptable to most. But the Kickr wasn't consistent. The 275 watts at high-z3 RPE and HR was coupled with 300 watt efforts that were harder than z5...I couldn't complete a set of 6x2'(2'). So the curve was jacked-up, and therefore useless to me for training.
I expect some people might have a fourth reason which is that it is very technical, i.e. it's more than "get on the bike and start pedaling". Personally I have no problem with the complexity and like many around here actually relish what technology offers us in our training. That's one reason I'm so disappointed that reasons 1-3 above dominated my Kickr experience.
Maybe I got a bad unit...who knows. But for $1,100 I have high expectations. The Kickr failed to meet them in many ways.
I will say btw that the LBS where I bought the unit -- Cadence Multisport in Philadelphia PA -- was kind enough to refund me in full for the unit despite a store policy of giving a store credit for returns. I really appreciated that and will go to that store again as a result.
p.s. the speed from the unit was also jacked up...one day it showed my 275-watt z4 as being 17mph and another day 19.4mph.
p.p.s. before you ask, yes I did a spin-down procedure (several times) and pretty well every troubleshooting procedure on the internet