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Forecast swimming improvements?

I had the best swim of my life this morning, a 1000yd TT of 15:57 (1:36 pace). For fun I plotted all of my TT results in excel and then forecast (using linear interpolation) where I will be at Wisconsin Race Day. The forecast is a 15:02 (1:30 pace). At what point do the swimming ninjas think I will start hitting diminishing returns? Is this a reasonable goal?

My latest breakthrough happened because I did some addressing of my form. I got some outside swim help and he made me do a lot of swimming with my legs tied together. It basically forced me to have a high cadence with no gaps and to really pull. It was torture but it worked. In the last 8 weeks I took a minute off my TT by working on strength by doing lots of sprints. I am now finally pulling with my lats. Can I gain the additional minute through strength improvements alone? I have little baby arms.

I also recently got a GoPro and will soon try to film myself swimming. I will post the video here.

Thanks!

Comments

  • Most excellent Peter. I'm not a swimming ninja so I can't comment on your expected improvements, but I have done some swimming with my legs bound by an inner tube and it is a tough drill. Congratulations on the improvement. 

  • Peter,

    Really nice gains. Huge congrats. I too focused on my swim this past off season and got some good gains. Your results probably won't continue in a linear fashion on a chart, so I wouldn't focus too much on that. I don't know if you still have body position issues, as those could be low-hanging fruit. But at your current TP and knowing your huge engine, I suspect you still have tons of room for improvement. So . . . no diminishing returns for a while. What's your stroke rate (strokes per 25yd and SPM)? Have you done a Ramp Test to determine a good stroke rate for you?

    I addressed a few position issues, did several Ramp Tests to find a good SPM (63) instead of my old glide-happy stroke (mid-40s) and then re-built my aerobic engine by doing tons of work at this new stroke rate at 95% of my TP/CSS. Not much different than what we do on the bike: frequent testing, adjust the pace, repeat. Frequency and volume help a lot. Coach P videoing me and pointing out a few flaws in January also helped a ton. I dropped my TP from 1:28/100yd to 1:23 in about 6 months.

    Lifting weights to beef up your arms may be good for the beach, but I don't see that helping at all for the swim. Swimming isn't an arm sport (just look at the little old lady lapping you at Masters).

    The above is what I did. Not necessarily what you should do.

    Best of luck. Look forward to following your progress.

    Mike
  • Thanks! I have no idea what a ramp test is, I will look into it. It says my stroke rate is 34 strokes/min, but that seems really low. Could it really be 68 spm? I will figure out whats really going on there. Thanks!

    https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/696419105
  • Just Google Swim Smooth Ramp Test. It's pretty easy. 34 would be pretty awful, but that may be counting one arm. 68 sounds really good. If it is 68, all that band work helped.
  • Cool. From the 920xt manual it says that a stroke is every time the arm wearing the watch completes a full cycle, so my spm is actually 68, at least in a 1000yd TT.

    So my cadence is good, therefore I either need to make further hydrodynamic improvements, or I need to pull harder. I will post a video as soon as I can find a buddy to film me at a pool in daylight hours. Thanks!
  • Peter, your progress has been terrific.  Congrats on your determination.  I don't think there is any reason you can't progress as your calculation suggests.  I've noticed Mike has made a lot of great comments since I've been on EN.  I would agree with him that a good stroke is more important than big arms.  I've seen my share of great swimmers with what might be described as weany arms.  

    I will be interested in seeing your video and I suspect Rich, and perhaps others, will have some helpful suggestions.  I am actually a volunteer swim coach on a pretty good age group team and will throw in my .02 if I have something to add.  Keep up the good work!

  • I agree with Bob ... your ceiling is not yet in sight. Just for motivation, I did a 1000 yd TT in 15:29 @ age 60. Certainly you can do better than that given your aerobic capacity and your dedication to training and skill improvement.

    There must be SOME value in increasing muscle strength - otherwise why would I be going slower as my testosterone diminishes as I age? But, as always, you are looking for SPORT SPECIFIC strength, which may be best developed simply by trying to swim with proper form.

    I bet your next set of improvements will come as you develop a better kinesthetic understanding of how to "grip" and "move" the water with your hand and forearm. Keen attention to exact positioning of the hand/forearm during the entirety of the stroke underwater can make a surprising difference.

  • Excellent results Peter. I have recently heard more and more about the swim workouts where you tie your legs together with a rubber band. However, I am currently ready the Matt Dixon " The well built triathlete" book and in his swimming section he addresses that drill and then also addresses the importance of a high stroke rate vs gliding and compares it to a high cadence with running. So I began looking into that drill and on a youtube video of his purplepatch coaching, he says he doesn't give that drill to age groupers, only to pros. I have not figured out why but it does seem to be a very effective drill. 

    Regarding stroke rate , he says as triathletes swimming in open water, the goal should be to progress to 70, 80 or even 90 strokes per minute. If that is really the case ( I dont know how people get to 80 SPM) then 68 SPM is a very good cadence of your arms. I recently started working on increasing my stroke rate ( currently at 58 SPM) but my times /100 yds are slower when I do this. For me personally it has an adverse effect on my pull. 

     

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