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Coach P,

I understand there can be quite a bit of variation from test-to-test.  That said, I was a little surprised, not that there was variation, but at the amount of variation between a couple of my 5k TTs.  

After 8 weeks of OS my 5k TT  on 2/25 yielded a time of 19:28 (6:15 pace), an average HR of 155, and a max HR of 163.  I went on vacation right after this test (literally the next day), raced that Saturday (PRed), then just did easy runs for the remainder of my time (it was vacation, after all!). Upon my return I had been switched from Out Season to Swim Camp so my running and biking were dialed back a bit.

I tested again today because I'm now in the advanced HIM plan and did 20:11 (6:30 pace), average HR of 152, and max HR of 155.  Both of these were on treadmills following the same protocol.  And although my HR didn't get as high, I was definitely struggling at the end.

So yes, I expected to lose some fitness, but I was surprised that after only 3 weeks of decreased intensity (and some volume) I "lost" 43 seconds and a couple of HR beats.  Is this variation within normal limits?  I haven't looked ahead at the HIM plan but I'm assuming I'll be able to recapture this lost fitness pretty quickly.  

 

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  • Scott, no two tests are the same. Period. It's nice to see that things are strong (both are great paces!) but you could be dehydrated, or a bit tired, etc. Given all your metrics were lower, sounds like fatigue could be an issue from "Restarting" the exercise routine. I'd make sure you are getting enough rest, etc. We don't want to put you in a place from which you can't bounce back...got it!? image

    Your fitness will come back for sure...honestly, early season "breaks" are a great way to make sure that you can train the full season. You are, after all, a human...not a robot!

    Rest, do the work, and we'll see the results!
  • Coach Patrick, I need some guidance on tweaking my plan around some travel. Here's the deal....


    I'm doing Augusta 70.3 on 9/27 and I'm following the HIM Advanced plan. Unfortunately, the 9 days before the race are going to be tough for me because of travel. I'll be flying to New York for a college reunion from 9/17-20. I won't have access to a bike during this trip, but I will be able to run and I purchased some cords so I can do a little swimming in the small hotel pool. I return home from NY on 9/20 and I have to be in Atlanta from 9/21-24 for a sales meeting. More than likely I'll leave Roanoke on Sunday, 9/20 and drive to Charlotte that night and will continue on to Atlanta on 9/21. I will have my bike with me so will be able to run and bike, and again, I'll have cords to at least get some kind of swimming done. In a nutshell, I'll be tapering the time I'm in Atlanta so I think I'll be able to complete most, if not all, of my workouts. It's the 4 days I'll be in New York that concern me. How shall I restructure the days leading up to that trip to get in everything that I need to? I'm bummed mostly because I feel that I'll really be hitting my stride going in to the race and I don't want to lose any fitness if I can help it. Sorry this is so lengthy, but there was a lot to cover! No hurry getting back to me...we have several weeks to make the adjustment. Thanks in advance for your help.
  • Scott, 10 days out is really taper time...that Thursday the week before your race (the long run) is really the last "workout" that really matters. After that, most of the workouts are about (a) not getting tight and (b) being able to eat more than a piece of lettuce.

    image

    So I'd almost rather you focus on two sessions a day...

    #1 - is wake up, 5' of core, 10' of bands, some stretching.

    #2 - is 30' to 45' of cardio. I am not really a fan of you biking in places you don't normally bike...unless you know the routes. Can be dangerous, esp the final days when your mind is wandering.

    The downside of travel is excessive food, liquor and lost sleep. If you can stick to just ONE of those things a day, you should be good...but if you go out late, eat a ton and get hammered...and do that more than once...that could be ugly. And not just for race day.

    When you get home, a nice hour long bike with some short efforts in the second half would be nice, as well as maybe a swim in your wetsuit would be good.

    If anything, you might be able to get a head start on logistics (drop bike for tune up, line up shopping for critical food, etc).
  • Thanks, Coach!

    There will be no cycling at all during the first trip so no worries there! There will be a little drinking as it is my 30-year college reunion, but nothing crazy. I've worked way too hard to get ready for Augusta 70.3. I q'fied for, and raced, 70.3 WC in 2013 and, although I realize that Augusta is an extremely competitive field, I'm still shooting for a 4:40ish finish and hopefully a top 5 (top 10 worst-case) finish. We'll see.

    My second trip to Atlanta - I'll be able to do the cardio as you suggested and I'll have my bike trainer - no outdoor rides or runs for me in Atlanta - no siree!  And I've already told my manager that I'll be in "race mode"; that I'll do whatever mandatory functions I have to, but as soon as the event is done, so am I. He's someone of a similar competitive ilk so he gets it. I'm even bringing my own pillow on that trip to help me sleep!

    Now if only I could get my swim wave moved up from 8:50 on race morning!

  • great plan...an 8:50 swim start? You could be DONE with your IM by then... image
  • Following up on Augusta 70.3 results. Not sure where else to post but here....

    If you scroll back up through this thread you'll see my goal was 4:40ish. Finished at 4:39:56 so was right there! 

    Finished 4th in 50-54 AG, 60th in gender, and 64th overall. Ended up with the 4th best bike split and 3rd best run split in my AG. A decent swim but a little slow in transitions. Overall not a bad day!

    I do believe that I signed up as an EN athlete so hopefully my efforts will help EN get that prize again!

    Scott

  • Scott, I believe you hit all your goals...top 5 AG, sub-4:40...and a 3rd best run off 4th best bike is nice!!!

    We do encourage folks to write up a race report that you can put in the Race Report Forum here: http://j.mp/1LYvmMm

    What a great way to close out your year...I hope you are half as pumped as me! image

    ~ Coach P
  • Coach P (or is Coach R here, too?)...Mariah suggested I send this here as you're combining threads. Here goes...

    I think my road map for the rest of the year needs tweaking. My original plan was to do Chatt 70.3, then Raleigh 70.3, then Chatt 140.6. I didn't get in to Chatt and just completed Raleigh 70.3 yesterday. If I follow the plan in my road map, I'd be in the GF plan right now ending on 6/25. I'd then load Full plan until Chatt full. 

    I'm going on vacation Thursday, June 8 and returning Friday, June 16. I'm going to Boulder and, while I know there's great cycling there, I'd prefer not to have to bring my bike. So...this is where I wonder if my plan needs tweaking.

    Is it okay to have a pseudo recovery week or so (happy to swim and run in Boulder, and maybe "demo" a Ventum for one ride while there during IM Boulder)? And when I start back up on June 17 what  plan shall I do? Shall I start the Full plan then or still be in Get Faster?

    Thanks for your ear and sorry for the confusion.
  • @scott Moir -  happy to help you out! You basically have to decide on how much we cover you need before the final push.

    After the typical half iron, we recommend two weeks of downtime to get things back into your system.  But then you have this "ghost" week to deal with. I suggest you do the following:

    Continue light to no activity thru this Sunday. (Unless demo ride).  Then Monday through Friday I'm with you on a run frequency program: running 30 to 40 minutes a day all at TRP given you will be at altitude. Bonus if you can add a swim. When you come back, you can get out on the bike that weekend to shake the legs out. 

    Then the following week load up that IM full plan (one week early) towards Chattanooga. The first week do things more for time that intensity and get yourself dialed into the new schedule.
  • Howdy! Two questions...

    1) Why is there a gap in bike power zones at the higher zones? For example, there's a 25-watt gap between my top-end z3 and my bottom-end z4.
    2) For brick runs, do I go off of pace zone or HR zone? I ask because after a 3.5 ride it seems my HR is higher at a certain pace compared to a stand-alone run. 

    Thanks!
  • @Scott Moir -  did you happen between training seventh is intentional. There's nothing to suggest that contiguous bike sons are more effective, or that moving from 145 to 146 means a sudden change in "zone." You can read more about it in the wiki here:

    http://members.endurancenation.us/Resources/Wiki/tabid/91/Default.aspx?topic=Understanding+Your+Bike+Zones

    For those longer rides plus the brick runs, I suggest to go by heart rate. This is exactly what you will be doing on race day, and it is good practice for you. Another words, this is an exercise in building endurance, not speed. We will save the speed work and pace for mid week!
  • Coach P...I need a little guidance. Have to give you the back story and will be as brief as possible. Today's 5 hour ride yielded this data... NP 192, TSS 303, IF .78, elevation gain 6700', 85 miles, 17 mph average AND an average HR of 107. I only stopped for a few minutes to refuel and had very few stop signs. 

    I did my 40' run after my bike so it was HR based. Following the script I would have run at a pace that yielded a 107 HR. For me that would be walking! What I did instead was aim to keep my HR at the average HR I had during IMLou last October, which was 122. As it turned out I finished at an average HR of 125 and an 8:51 pace. 

    My TRP is 7:54, my zone 2 is 7:17, and my zon3 3 is right around 7:00. My IMLou marathon last year was 3:42. 

    Needless to say, I'm a little confused as to what pace I should be shooting for off the bike! If I go off average bike HR it'll be low I think. Any suggestions? Thanks.
  • Here's one more piece to the puzzle I described above...

    I did my 1-hour run at TRP today after my 90-minute ABP bike. Again, my TRP is 7:54. I ended up today at 7:53 and my average HR was 127. 

    I'm just trying to figure out what my run pace and/or HR pace is for the first 6 miles, then what my run and/or HR pace will be for the balance.

    Also, Chattanooga is a bit unique. Between the first 6 miles and the start of the hills on Barton, there isn't much time to really establish race pace. What do you recommend once we get into the North Shore part of the run?

    Thanks.
  • @scott moir -  before I get too into the analysis, I would love to see some data on Strava. When I look for your name online I see there are eight people with your first and last name. Maybe give me the last numbers of your profile ID so I can find you that way? Then I will look at the data and make some recommendations. We can solve this! 
  • Hey Coach Patrick. Guess what? I'm probably that one guy in EN that doesn't do Strava! Never really felt the need for it. I can give you my Garmin Connect userid and password if you'd like to do it that way. It isn't like there's anything there to steal!!!! I do try to get outdoors to run as much as possible, but I also resort to my treadmill when time-crunched. I set the treadmill for the same pace as I would outside and keep it at 2%. Not sure if it really matches in terms of HR, though. Depends on if it's a brick or stand-alone run. Let me know how you'd like to proceed. Thanks. We still have 6 weeks so whenever you get time is fine.
  • @scott moir -  yes let's do the Garman connect stuff. If you don't want to share it here in this public thread, you can use the red chat button at the bottom of the Endurance Nation members website and that will get to me as well. Thanks for the note about the treadmill, I'm very interested to see what we find! 

  • Thanks, Coach. Sent you an email with the info you'll need to access GC. 
  • I am on it, just in the car. Stay tuned.
  • Hey Coach! First, I am NOT trying to rush you. I'm posting this to let you know that there are now more data available that I think will help our cause. Did the RR ride yesterday and followed it up with the run as planned. Again, I'm one of those interesting HR guys. My average HR for the 113-mile bike ride at .75 IF was 110. For me to run at 110 HR would mean I'd be walking. I think I ended up at around an 8:50 pace for the run and my average HR was 130. Took a little bit of a wimpy approach today and only rode 4 hours instead of 6. Again, IF was around the same (average NP was only 1 or 2 watts different from yesterday) but my average HR was 102. We covered 74 miles and climbed about 3750'. Ran the 30 minutes afterward at an 8:15 pace with an average HR of 120. My TRP is 7:54 so I didn't run as hard as prescribed, but I'm still trying to figure out how to pace my first 6 miles. Anyway, all of this is in Garmin Connect. Feel free to explore when you get time. Thanks!
  • Hey Scott,

    Jenn Edwards here stepping in as Coach P makes his way back from IMMT.  Epic, yes?!?

    If I'm understanding correctly, the delta between your bike HR and your run HR at "ballpark" efforts is much larger than would be prescribed for the typical execution protocol.  If I may... it could just be time to call in the "Special Snowflake" card and just let it be what it is.  Assuming, of course that the 0.75 IF ride was plenty of effort.   If that's the case, let's start taking a look at your heart rate on your long runs and try practicing those first few miles off the bike at the low end of that range and build from there.

    I hope that gives you an idea to try.  No hard feelings if you want to (re) ping P when he is back in the saddle.

    Cheers! - Jenn
  • edited August 22, 2017 1:46AM
    Hey Jenn. Not sure what "ballpark" means! I'm probably making a mountain out of a mole hill! I know that EN endorses running the first 6 miles of the run at your average HR on the bike for the last, um, I forget how many miles. Last year at IMLOU my bike HR was 122 and my average NP was 191. On my long ride Saturday I role 113 miles in 5:49 minutes and my aNP was 183. It was 185 but dropped during the short cool down. For that ride my HR was 110. So...I'm trying to figure out what my HR should be for that first 6 miles! With very fatigued legs I ran 18 miles yesterday. I know I was only supposed to run two hours, but I did 18. And I went completely off of feel. I did not look at pace at all for the entire 2:37! So that run (at noon, in the dead heat of the day) yielded an 8:51 pace at an average HR of 125. All of this said, I ran a 3:42 marathon at IMLou last year but don't have data because my Garmin 920 died mid-run. Also I did IMCdA last year, too, coming off of an injury. So that time wasn't great and it allowed me to only run one 13 mile run between the two races and somehow still eke out a 3:42. Granted IMLou is a flat course! I did IMChoo in 2014 and came out on the run way too hot. Paid for it starting at mile 15. I don't want to repeat that this year. My zone 1 pace is 8:32 and zone 1 HR is up to 118, my TRP is 7:54 up to 124 HR, and my z2 pace is 7:17 up to 134 HR. Yesterday then, my HR was TRP but my pace was z1+20". So...start the run at 8:30-8:40 and work my way to 8:20 after 6? Or go solely of off HR since shortly after mile 6 we get to the North Shore and start climbing. 

    Looking very forward to our input! If you can make any sense out of my narrative!
  • Hey Scott--  Adding my 2 cents here as well...  You have shown the ability to run a 3:42 IM marathon on multiple occasions now (which is pretty darn fast by most IM standards), but as you know, CHOO is a different beast than LOU.  I think what Jenn was implying that although it is a blanket EN statement to run the first 6 miles at your bike HR, you seem to have an obscenely low bike HR and quite strong running ability...   Another EN "blanket statement" is to add 30" to your goal race pace for the first 6 miles of the run.   This guidance is really here to remind you not to run "faster" at the beginning of an IM run simply because you feel great.  Because as you likely know, you never feel "great" in the last 6-8 miles of an IM marathon.   

    So...   Instead of running "too fast" at the beginning of the run, instead force yourself to slow down a bit and take in some extra fluids and nutrition to really set up the latter part of your run when you may or may not be able to stomach much of anything.  

    I'd be curious to see what Coach P finally chimes in with, but if I were advising you, I'd say to cap yourself out around a ~120-122 HR, but also no faster than say ~8:40-8:45 pace on average per mile for the first ~6 or so miles.  6 miles is also a "ballpark" recommendation with some really strong runners sliding this down to 4-5 miles depending on the course and how they feel and other shakier runners (or bikers) pushing this out to 7-8 miles. Personally I only do around ~3-4 miles, but I have a hard time "speeding up", even in a stand-alone run.  The goal really is to settle in your legs and really fuel up and setup the next few hours on your feet.  If you add ~20-30 seconds per mile for ~4-6 miles at the beginning of your run that's only a couple of minutes.  You will get that back in spades if you're still running somewhat smoothly (not slowing down even when it's getting a lot harder)  in the last 6-8 miles. 

     
  • @John Withrow - Thanks for the input! I always enjoy hearing other athlete's input. You're right, I do know that Choo is a different beast - which is probably why I'm overthinking the run this time! I'm looking for that "perfect" pace/HR that will lend itself to a smart run! You nailed it - in 2014 I felt awesome at the start of the run. I KNEW I was going to have my best IM marathon split yet! Until mile 15! What's also interesting is that I was not an EN athlete then but I did attend the 4 Keys talk. And I STILL didn't listen and went out too hard! Again, hoping to find the right starting pace which will let me get to a good race pace that will hopefully produce a much better run time this year vs. 2014. Thanks again for your input.
  • @scott moir -  Great advice from both of them. At the end of the day were trying to make sure those for 6 miles are set up so that you can eat and drink. Bottom line is once you start running up to cross the river and you are across the river, there's no way you can possibly eat and still run well. So those first few miles are critical for Nutrition). You need to plan out how you were going to eat by distance, not time, as you will be stuck having just Gatorade and maybe a cliff block every other mile.

     Even just staying at a steady pace will have your heart rate skyrocket. How will you run after that surge and in the second half of your race is all predicated on the first 6 miles. Talk to me about how you were going to do the nutrition in those early miles, including a banana out of T2, and what your damage control strategy is should you stomach start to go south after those hills.
  • Hey Coach P! I know you're in the throes of Kona prep, so no hurry on this reply. Wrapped up my season with Chattanooga and am rudderless now. I'm going to Kona as a spectator from 10/7-10/15 so no real need to crank anything up until I return. Not sure what to crank up yet, since I have no idea what my race schedule will look like next year. I do know that I don't want to go as long as I did last year without some structure. I also know that I want to incorporate more strength training into whatever plan I take on. Any suggestions on a plan and when to start/stop will be helpful. I'll be cheering you on in Kona. Go get 'em!
  • @Scott Moir looking forward to seeing you out there!!! When you are ready I think the best course of action is our Run Durability Program (RDP)  which you can read about here: How to Train This (And Every Fall) Inside Endurance Nation  -- there's even a great text group to help you stay focused: GroupMe Chat for RDP 

    We do that until you are ready for the OS, which will likely by a January start (1/8)...deal?

    ~ Coach P
  • Coach P - 1) Enjoyed finally getting to meet you face-to-face in Kona! 2) Congrats on a great race there - it was fun seeing on the bike and near the finish line on the run. 3) How did the nut work out in your Ventum bottle?

    Hope you're enjoying some rest time.
  • @“scott moir” -  Great to meet and chill with you as well. And thank you so much for that special hack...I always like making changes for improvements - aggregation of marginal gains as they say. Hope your transition home wasn’t too rough!!
  • @Scott Moir

    Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually Monday & Friday each week.


    Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply. 


    Coach Notes

    Hey Scott, glad to hear you are on the mend. I also fractured my acetabulum and had a protracted return to exercise. I found that I eventually came back to 100%, it was more a matter of me being patient with the functionality I had in the moment. Early on in the recovery process, I always wanted to be faster and stronger. But when it turns to actually running, it became apparent that I needed time to adapt. And I had to make that time.

    The best way for us to do that is to keep you active but at a very low stress level on the run. So I have you in the run durability program doing the bike focused edition which means making sure you doN't yet run on back to back days and That you feel free to do Two long rides on the weekends versus any long runs. I really don't want you running longer than 5 miles at this point in time, I do not see the upside Of doing that before the OutSeason®.

    We need this slow ramp up so that we can be ready not only for the half marathon but for back-to-back early-season races. Your projected plan is sufficient, we just need to make sure that were doing the work to support it.

    In terms of the transition from Chattanooga to Eagleman, it will be about four days of hard rest before we get back to work again. You can train as hard as you did in the first one, but you can be better prepared and more efficient. Perhaps even ruthless! Your success in the second race depends entirely on how hard you raise the first one, and how will you manage the transition period let me know to think



    Your Races

    • 04/13/2019 Blue Ridge Half Marathon (local, hilly - 1800' of gain).
    • Ironman 70.3 Chattanooga (2019-05-19) #703chattanooga_19   
    • Ironman 70.3 Eagleman (2019-06-09)


    Season Update

    These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.

    • Last updated by Coach on 11/21/2018
    • On 11/19/2018 Load the -- Run Durability for Triathletes 2 (8 months out) -- 4 weeks to end on 12/16/2018
    • On 12/17/2018 Load the -- Run Durability for Triathletes 3 (7 months out) -- 4 weeks to end on 1/13/2019
    • On 1/7/2019 Load the OutSeason (Run Focus) Plan, 14wks to end on 4/14/2019
    • On 3/18/2019 Load the EN*Half Bike Focused to end on 5/19/2019
    • On 5/20/2019 Load the -- EN*Half Run Focused to end on 6/9/2019
    • On 6/10/2019 Load the -- Post Half Iron Transition Plan, All Levels (2wks) to end on 6/23/2019


    Your Notes

    2010 - B2B 140.6

    2011 - White Lake HIM

    2012 - IMTX

    2013 - Raleigh 70.3, IMLP, 70.3 WC Vegas

    2014 - Rev 3 Williamsburg HIM, Lake Logan HIM, IMCHOO

    2015 - Rev 3 Knoxville HIM, Augusta 70.3

    2016 - Boulder 70.3, IMCdA, IMLOU

    2017 - Raleigh 70.3, IMCHOO

    2018 - Chattanooga 70.3Was training for IMMT in 2018. Suffered a superior acetabular fracture in late June. 6 weeks off bike. 3 months no running. I would estimate that my HR is currently 15-20 bpm higher at similar efforts from pre-injury. 


    I've been doing both bike and run, and some strength training. Have not swam since June and I'm on no plan of any kind currently. I have lots of making up to do!


    My plan is to race a local half marathon in mid-April, a local sprint tri in early May, Chattanooga 70.3 on May 19, Eagle Man 70.3 on June 9, and do a sprint tri at my college in late August. The format below only allows me to put in a couple of my races for the season and I wanted you to see at least through Eagle Man since it'll only be 3 weeks after Chattanooga 70.3. 


    My real question is how to tackle this and regain lost fitness quickly.


    Let's get to work!


    ~ Coach P

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