Ok. I will risk being the "jerk" here. I think this is a fun, friendly conversation. Roy, I admire your fight. I am the father of a daughter that I would like to see running a company, holding elected office, being a mother or all three. She has the potential and the ability to do it all. One day she could win Kona, regardless of if there are 34 other women or 49.
I am the husband to the smartest women I know. My wife has a Phd. in psychology and during much of our marriage earned a better living then me.
(No one ever says all this stuff unless there is "BUT" coming....)
But, I wouldn't be interested in watching either one of them ride a bike on television.
When I watch sports, I want to see the fastest humans. The genitals they are sporting is not a big part of the equation. I think race organizers are the same. People in business want to serve a need and make money. If people were clambering for the WNBA, it would be on TV every night. The network executives are not sexists. "The Man" is not trying to keep these women down. They put it on TV and no one watches. Look at UFC, they can barely sell female fights. People are not interested.
As I write this, I tried to think of all the female tri pros I could name. I could only get 8 and that was counting Julie Moss. I could only 12 men. Frankly, now that I think about it. Let's have 15 men and 15 women. Only three of each podium anyway. That way we can have 55 more AGer's.
When we try and force sports based on gender (female Tour de France) that the market place is not interested in seeing we shame those competitors. It becomes a charity. It becomes political correctness, not competition.
It becomes "Awe, look at those ladies riding the 'female' Tour de France. Good for them. That's so cute. I am glad the organizers are throwing them a bone".
Winning 15 more "pro" spots in sports where pros (male and female) are irrelevant seems unworthy of the effort.
Just my two cents. Perhaps I am stirring the pot, but I think these conversations are more interesting when firmer opinions are expressed. I DO NOT want to offend anyone or belittle their perspectives. I value all the opinions expressed. I am just expressing mine. Take it for what it is worth....
@Paul, I agree with your points concerning if you want to play in X's sandbox, you have to abide by X's rules. And because I think WTC is a business at the end of the day, I believe they can make whatever rules they want. However, I also get to chose whether or not I give them my money and voice my opinion to them in (what I hope was) a professional and non-accusatory way. So that's what this ends up being to me. A consumer's choice.
@Dino - I hate watching WNBA. I've tried. Just isn't happening. So I get that as well. I would argue that Rhonda Rousey is selling a whole lot of UFC tickets with her 16 second wins and smack talk, but that's a topic for another thread. As to you being the jerk for voicing your opinion, they only way I buy that is if you consider me the bleeding heart activist. I don't think either one of us fall into those descriptions. This conversation is a genuine one to me and I certainly don't expect everyone to rush out and boycott WTC out of seething outrage. This is one of a whole lot of topics my wife and I talk about because it's the 'thing' in my house right now. I'm retiring next year and she will become the breadwinner, I will become what my daughter has taken to calling, a 'house man', and I'll take over the majority of domestic duties (when I'm not out burning my athletic supporter at protests). I do intend to get involved in social movements along this theme, but I don't hate everyone on the other side of the opinion. And I genuinely appreciate an honest and frank sharing of viewpoints. It would be boring if everyone thought the right way as I do ??. At the end of the day, people are just people ??
@ Roy - you are 100% spot on. Spend your money where you want - that's your right as an American and what you protect in your job! Next to Track and Field, my favorite olympic sport is women's beach volleyball. The men's game isn't worth watching...ha.
@ Dino - holy cow, I think I can do better. Here goes: Chrissie Wellington, Miranda Carfrae, Leanda Cave, Paula Newby Frazier, Angela Naeth, Emma Pooley, Joan Benoit Samuelson, Mary Decker Tabb, Greta Waitz, Ronda Rousey, Ann Trason (greatest female athlete of all time), Puntuous twins, Sarah Haskins, Sarah McClarty, Jackie Joyner Kersey, FloJo, Nicola Spirig. I've got a host of others on the tip of my tongue and their names will probably come to me during today's ride!
@Dino- I'm still a woman and I'm still not offended :-) I would add one thing though- when you say that you aren't interested in women's races because you want to see the fastest humans, I think this is because you are male. As a woman, I do enjoy watching the female pros/elites bike, run, or tri more than the men, because they are still crazy fast and they are more relatable to me. Its that idea of women (or minorities) not envisioning something for themselves unless they see someone like them doing it. Of course I'm not envisioning a pro career for myself, but it is a heck of a lot more inspiring and awe-insipring for me to watch the women. I'm guessing I'm not the only women who feels that way, and my guess is that if your daughter watched the Boston Marathon on Monday, she'd be more into the women's race than the mens.
I do think we need to be wary when something can be viewed as being done to be fair or giving women charity, as it hurts everyone. In my professional career, I am extremely appreciative of efforts to promote women in academia in STEM. However, the times I have heard that a woman got a position or tenure or a grant because she was a woman is astounding and it hurts. My own advisor, who I would say overall is a great champion of women, has never once brought up a fellowship that I got without making some reference to that it was because I am a woman. If we put 50 women in Kona out of fairness or it being the right thing to do, and not because we really believe all 50 are every ounce as good as the 50 men, I do believe that can hurt everyone.
@Rachel - That makes a ton of sense. I had not considered that women would identify more closely with women. That's a perfect point. I think the other issues you raised were spot on.
@Paul - You cheated. When I started looking at your names, you only have about the same number of Female pro triathletes that I had. THEN, you started cherry picking other sports. Most of the female triathletes you named were on my list too, BTW.
@Roy - Well said. I was a house husband (kept man) for a while. It was awesome. I worked from home (my boss was in Dallas at company HQ) while my wife crushed it at the office. Being in the beverage business had me in grocery stores a couple times per week. As result, I would watch Food Network while working on my laptop in the afternoon and then would have dinner simmering by the time mama brought home the beacon. I was also half in the bag. It was "wine-time" at 5:00 PM. She got home about 6:30. Those were the "salad days".
@ Dino - I bet you didn't know about Ann Trason. Check her times at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Trason 2nd OVERALL at Western States 100 in 1994...beat every guy out there except one. When she towed the line, the top men were sweating bullets.
Comments
I am the husband to the smartest women I know. My wife has a Phd. in psychology and during much of our marriage earned a better living then me.
(No one ever says all this stuff unless there is "BUT" coming....)
But, I wouldn't be interested in watching either one of them ride a bike on television.
When I watch sports, I want to see the fastest humans. The genitals they are sporting is not a big part of the equation. I think race organizers are the same. People in business want to serve a need and make money. If people were clambering for the WNBA, it would be on TV every night. The network executives are not sexists. "The Man" is not trying to keep these women down. They put it on TV and no one watches. Look at UFC, they can barely sell female fights. People are not interested.
As I write this, I tried to think of all the female tri pros I could name. I could only get 8 and that was counting Julie Moss. I could only 12 men. Frankly, now that I think about it. Let's have 15 men and 15 women. Only three of each podium anyway. That way we can have 55 more AGer's.
When we try and force sports based on gender (female Tour de France) that the market place is not interested in seeing we shame those competitors. It becomes a charity. It becomes political correctness, not competition.
It becomes "Awe, look at those ladies riding the 'female' Tour de France. Good for them. That's so cute. I am glad the organizers are throwing them a bone".
Winning 15 more "pro" spots in sports where pros (male and female) are irrelevant seems unworthy of the effort.
Just my two cents. Perhaps I am stirring the pot, but I think these conversations are more interesting when firmer opinions are expressed. I DO NOT want to offend anyone or belittle their perspectives. I value all the opinions expressed. I am just expressing mine. Take it for what it is worth....
Hugs!
@Dino - I hate watching WNBA. I've tried. Just isn't happening. So I get that as well. I would argue that Rhonda Rousey is selling a whole lot of UFC tickets with her 16 second wins and smack talk, but that's a topic for another thread. As to you being the jerk for voicing your opinion, they only way I buy that is if you consider me the bleeding heart activist. I don't think either one of us fall into those descriptions. This conversation is a genuine one to me and I certainly don't expect everyone to rush out and boycott WTC out of seething outrage. This is one of a whole lot of topics my wife and I talk about because it's the 'thing' in my house right now. I'm retiring next year and she will become the breadwinner, I will become what my daughter has taken to calling, a 'house man', and I'll take over the majority of domestic duties (when I'm not out burning my athletic supporter at protests). I do intend to get involved in social movements along this theme, but I don't hate everyone on the other side of the opinion. And I genuinely appreciate an honest and frank sharing of viewpoints. It would be boring if everyone thought the right way as I do ??. At the end of the day, people are just people ??
@ Dino - holy cow, I think I can do better. Here goes: Chrissie Wellington, Miranda Carfrae, Leanda Cave, Paula Newby Frazier, Angela Naeth, Emma Pooley, Joan Benoit Samuelson, Mary Decker Tabb, Greta Waitz, Ronda Rousey, Ann Trason (greatest female athlete of all time), Puntuous twins, Sarah Haskins, Sarah McClarty, Jackie Joyner Kersey, FloJo, Nicola Spirig. I've got a host of others on the tip of my tongue and their names will probably come to me during today's ride!
I do think we need to be wary when something can be viewed as being done to be fair or giving women charity, as it hurts everyone. In my professional career, I am extremely appreciative of efforts to promote women in academia in STEM. However, the times I have heard that a woman got a position or tenure or a grant because she was a woman is astounding and it hurts. My own advisor, who I would say overall is a great champion of women, has never once brought up a fellowship that I got without making some reference to that it was because I am a woman. If we put 50 women in Kona out of fairness or it being the right thing to do, and not because we really believe all 50 are every ounce as good as the 50 men, I do believe that can hurt everyone.
@Paul - You cheated. When I started looking at your names, you only have about the same number of Female pro triathletes that I had. THEN, you started cherry picking other sports. Most of the female triathletes you named were on my list too, BTW.
@Roy - Well said. I was a house husband (kept man) for a while. It was awesome. I worked from home (my boss was in Dallas at company HQ) while my wife crushed it at the office. Being in the beverage business had me in grocery stores a couple times per week. As result, I would watch Food Network while working on my laptop in the afternoon and then would have dinner simmering by the time mama brought home the beacon. I was also half in the bag. It was "wine-time" at 5:00 PM. She got home about 6:30. Those were the "salad days".