ST George test results
I might do a formal RR later, but at 6:47, obviously I was not prepared and looking forward to forgetting about it. This came as a surprise. I didn't expect it to be easy by any means, but I also didn't expect new PW. A few questions about my experience:
1. My bike plan was to keep the wattage at .8, or 295-210. However, that wattage does not get one over snow canyon, nor many of the other ascents on the course, even with max climbing gears and slowed cadence. This seems to me a hole in EN bike philosophy. I can appreciate the concept of "flatten the hills", but had I stayed at that wattages, I'd be walking or tipping. I needed 280-330, which I believe torched me legs because....
2. My training never included prolonged periods of 100%+ FTP. Why is that? It seems my 8. 10, 12, 15 minute intervals at z2 (162-175) and z3 (185-200) never approached what I faced on Saturday, not even close. It seems to me, with both Austin and STG under my belt, that our HIM plan aims for a median course, so the athlete will over achieve on flattish course and perform poorly on challenging courses. My walking finish was largely the result of expired quads, and I do not believe that was preventable based on the training intensity i experienced over the past 3 months.
3. My top speed coming down snow canyon (and many others) was 38 mph. I could no longer pedal, having exhausted my gearing. Is that normal?
4. How much of my performance can be attributed to altitude? I live and train at sea level.
5. Am serious considering training like a wrestler, in sseat gear. STG is the second race whereby the heat was a dominant and factor.
Quite a gut check before CDA. Going to be a lot of changes in the next 9 weeks.
1. My bike plan was to keep the wattage at .8, or 295-210. However, that wattage does not get one over snow canyon, nor many of the other ascents on the course, even with max climbing gears and slowed cadence. This seems to me a hole in EN bike philosophy. I can appreciate the concept of "flatten the hills", but had I stayed at that wattages, I'd be walking or tipping. I needed 280-330, which I believe torched me legs because....
2. My training never included prolonged periods of 100%+ FTP. Why is that? It seems my 8. 10, 12, 15 minute intervals at z2 (162-175) and z3 (185-200) never approached what I faced on Saturday, not even close. It seems to me, with both Austin and STG under my belt, that our HIM plan aims for a median course, so the athlete will over achieve on flattish course and perform poorly on challenging courses. My walking finish was largely the result of expired quads, and I do not believe that was preventable based on the training intensity i experienced over the past 3 months.
3. My top speed coming down snow canyon (and many others) was 38 mph. I could no longer pedal, having exhausted my gearing. Is that normal?
4. How much of my performance can be attributed to altitude? I live and train at sea level.
5. Am serious considering training like a wrestler, in sseat gear. STG is the second race whereby the heat was a dominant and factor.
Quite a gut check before CDA. Going to be a lot of changes in the next 9 weeks.
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Comments
Hi Doug,
Sounds like you didn't have a great day out there. IMSG is a tough course, for sure. Happy to help you figure some things out.
What was your FTP on race day. I'm confused by your notes above re keeping things at a .8 IF 295-210. I think you probably meant 195-210w?
What's your weight?
What gearing do you have on your bike?
What was your IF (intensity factor) and VI (variability index) in the first ~30' of the bike?
Getting up a hill is abou power to weight ratio and gearing. All of us, every athlete out there, reaches some combination of percent grade, power to weight ratio, and gearing that forces them to go above their planned wattage in order to get up the hill. Having more gears on your bike just increases the cadence at which this "watts higher than planned" thing happens and higher cadence in this situation is generally a good thing. A higher w/kg athlete may face this situation at >12% grade, for example, while a lower w/kg athlete may hit this situation at 8%. But regardless, at the end of the day, we all gotta get up the damn hill and you do the best you can. It is what it is.
The solution to improve things, for both sets of athletes is to:
Regarding the downhills, again, at some top speed we all run out of gears. You generally should be coasting and resting above ~38mph anyway. Through a combination of gearing, aerodynamics, and comfort with speed, I was able to descend at lot of stuff out there at 42-48mph. I haven't downloaded my file yet, but I may have touched 50mph. That speed is very, very valuable to carry across the next set of flats, rollers, and other terrain.
Elevation of SG is 2800ft. There is no effect of altitude at this elevation.
In short, it's instinctive to think that a race result is the result of a fitness or training deficiency. However, in our experience, race execution should be analyzed first.
Finally, this is my quick perspective on the IMSG bike and run courses:
Anyway, please give us more detail so we can help you move forward from this.
Doug,
For what it's worth, sounds like you're having a discussion similar to the one I had with myself after IM Wisconsin. That bike course chewed me up. I went into that race thinking I was fit and ready. I weighed 165 lbs (75 kgs), had a standard 53/39 ring and 11-25 cassette, and probably a 180-85 FTP. During both loops on race day, I stood on the three big hills on the back side, grinding up at about 16 rpm and coming very close to having to walk. I was the Timmy Trigeek that RnP talk about in their 4 Keys speech. Knowing what I now know about power, I was probably pushing 280-320 watts up those hills. So . . . six good climbs near 150% of FTP! Looking back, I'm not surprised that a miserable jog/walk followed that ride. As Coach R said, the three main inputs that go into climbing ability are power, weight and gearing. But for us mortals who aren't 4.0+ w/kg, there's a fourth factor - race selection. Especially at the IM distance, we can only ride at .85 IF for so long before the adverse, cumulative effects are just too great - maybe 10-15% of total ride time? Same for FTP - you spend 5-10% of the total ride time at threshold or above, and you're accumulating too many TSS points and sabotaging your race. But what if your power, weight and gears are simply as good as they can get and you still have to hit FTP or above for much of the ride? We just shouldn't do that race. At least not do it and expect grand results. If you're w/kg is 2.5, I would avoid some of the hillier races, and I wouldn't tackle the killer bike courses until I was at least 3.5 w/kg. I'm sure you could post your strengths, weaknesses and data in the forums and ask folks for races that may be suitable for you. If you want to go the more high-tech route, the folks at Best Bike Split came up with an algorithm that takes into account a course's elevation gain, grade, etc. and created a race-day-prediction tool based on your personal data. BBS just happens to be very accurate for me and has been very helpful in picking races. For kicks, I just plugged in the numbers I raced with at Wisconsin a few years ago, and it said my TSS on that course was likely a tragic 341. In other words, I was lucky to have been able to walk the run. That race was simply not suitable for me, at that time. Had I known that going into that race, I would have withdrawn and volunteered. When I change the numbers to my current 260 FTP/147 lbs, I get an acceptable 279 TSS. But if I were to do Lanzarote with my current numbers, BBS says I'd be facing a TSS of 305. Which is too much. So . . . no Canary Islands vacation for me in the near future.
Train smart, work hard, pick a race that suits you, go get the next one.
Coach:
FTP 235
Goal power: 195-210
Weight 194
Gearing: 50/34, 11/25 cassette
For the race:
IF .93
VI 1.15
(5 mile laps)
Lap#1
IF NP AP Max AHR MHR AvSp MSp Cad
0.95 223 189 395 148 161 13.6 30.4 67
Lap #2
0.88 206 197 369 151 158 20.6 31.1 79
Lap #3
0.85 200 188 687 151 158 24.3 38.6 81
Lap #4
1.00 234 222 410 153 162 17.0 37.7 81
Lap #5
1.01 238 196 448 150 167 18.7 38.4 73
Lap #6
0.99 233 216 540 156 166 16.4 39.4 73
TSS 296
Some things I've learned for getting up hills when my FTP just isn't enough- 1) GEARS! 11-25 is not enough! More gears will help that ability to ride "easy" (relative term) up the hill without toppling over. 2) Figure out just how slow you can ride without tipping over. I'm not sure of the terrain you usually ride, but I"m a total flatlander. I didn't realize just how slow you can go up hill (more gears help with this). Make sure you are NOT looking at speed. I think the coaches suggest trying to keep the pressure on the pedals the same as you start to go up, very true. I just finished the BRP camp with a lower FTP and higher kg than ideal by a long shot, but it was still doable.
I know it is discouraging, but one race does not dictate your fitness or your season. Learn what you can, and move on! CdA is goign to be awesome!
Doug, I know how you feel. I was right there almost exactly a year ago after St George. The course chewed me up and spit me out. I joined EN the next day.
I have similar stats as you: FTP = 230W and 168 lbs. I have a compact crank and 11/28 cassette. This year I rode very conservatively up Snow Canyon. I never went above FTP and kept my max power at 215W. My average power output on the climb was around 200W. I made it up with no problems. Lots of folks passed me hammering it up the canyon, but then I passed them all when I still had gas in the tank to blast down the highway back into town.
I think you can be successful on this course with your stats.
St George is a tough, tough course. You have to make a lot of decisions on the bike to make sure you have a good run. I was much better prepared this year thanks to a year of EN training. I like St George because it rewards the well prepared triathlete.
Mike has lot of good advice above, and I am sure Coach Rich will fix you up. The only thing I would add is to do at least one dedicated climbing day per week. I did the Sufferfest climbing workouts like Angels so I could work on my power at low cadence. My sweet spot is around a cadence of 90. When things dropped below 70 I would crank out way too much power and blow up (which I did last year at St George in Snow Canyon). I learned to control my power at lower cadence.
Good luck!
1. All of us, every athlete out there, reaches some combination of percent grade, power to weight ratio, and gearing that forces them to go above their planned wattage in order to get up the hill.
2. But for us mortals who aren't 4.0+ w/kg, there's a fourth factor - race selection.
Consider #1 among other things.... when deciding on #2......
I have similar FTP to you but I'm almost half the man you are so I have a pretty high w/kg ratio , common sense would say I should do hilly course.... But I still struggle on them and seem to do better on flatter courses relative to my AG anyway... My PW is the old Mooseman HIM in NH and its a full 1hr slower than my PB flat course HIM (BTW I'd put the Mooseman course up against IMSG anyday that thing was just BRUTAL)..... Anyway you can always go back much more educated and probably fitter and crush that IMSG bar you set OR you can consider your strengths and search out courses that may fit you better.... For instance I'm a freeze baby so I try my hardest to avoid cold courses and gravitate towards hot ones!
Onward to IMCDA
Hey Doug,
Thanks for adding your power file information. I read your IMSG race plan as well, from the Race Execution forum. This is what I'm seeing.
First, your FTP is absolutely higher than the 235w above. I know this because it's basically physically impossible to ride at a .93 IF for 3hrs+ like you did at IMSG. TSS of 296 for a HIM bike would leave you with about zero chance of running a single step after the first mile of the run.
I checked your TSR and I put you into wk10 of the HIM plan in route to IMSG. There was an FTP test at the end of the OS, in wk14. Did you do that test? There was another test in wk12 of the HIM plan. Did you do that test? There was a race rehearsal schedule for wk14 of the HIM plan. Did you do that?
My point is that somewhere between wk10 and wk16 of the HIM plan (as I put you into the IM plan in wk9 on ~4/6 I believe) you had several opportunities to either test or identify a significant disconnect between your FTP, your actual FTP, and it's application via a race rehearsal.
Next, you posted your IMSG race plan on 4/26. Tim pointed out your huge delta between '14 and end-of-OS FTPs. More importantly, on 4/27 Gabe gave you some excellent input, calling into question your estimated/goal bike split. Did you read that? It doesn't look like you applied it and used it as opportunity to amend your plan. Instead, it looks to me like you simply took your Austin bike split, made that your goal for IMSG, done, with any regard to the significant difference between the courses. It's always, always very valuable to search out the profiles of bike courses, total gains, etc so you can make informed comparisons between events and better refine your race day expectations.
Finally, a compact crank with a 25/11 cassette isn't enough gears for this course at your w/kg. I ride a compact with 26/11, am at ~3.9w/kg right now, and I was standing and grinding more than I would have liked to in the last bit of Snow Canyon. A 28/12 would have been a much better choice for you.
The result is that you applied an inaccurate FTP to poorly estimated bike split, resulting in a goal IF and resultant goal watts that were too high. You then applied this plan to a significantly harder bike course than you anticipated. Which kept you out there long, racking up a much higher TSS than you wanted to. Which then dumped you onto one of the hardest HIM run courses in NA, on a hot day.
^This^ then comes back around to Mike and Tim's point about proper race selection. Between EN and PTC, I witnessed a very wide range of athletes do this race. Notes:
The net is that we saw a LOT of MOP and BOP athletes having a tough, tough day out there. As I "own" the IMSG conversation in the EN space, I'm committed to doing a much better job of setting everyone up for success in 2016.
Fixing YOU going forward:
Sorry for the tough love tone
but I know the early May HIM to IMCDA training and race execution refinement trajectory very, very well, having done it 3x myself and coached hundreds through it. The clock really is ticking on your remaining opportunities to learn the details of racing an Ironman with power. IMSG was clearly a wake up call but you've got the time and resources here to help you fix it.
Good luck!
I won't repeat the excellent advice/analysis here from Coach and others. But a comment about gearing, having done both the St G and IM CDA courses recently. I have a compact Shimano Ultegra with 11-32 in the back. that requires their "Medium" length rear derailleur. SRAM also makes an 11-32, with what they call a WI Fli RD, what I have on my road bike. Both of those allow me to SPIN up the climbs at St G and CDA, in the range of 70-80% of my FTP. My w/kg is 3.2 and dropping with each passing month. Point is, get all the help you can from your equipment; we don;t get any extra credit on race day for having the smallest rear cassette. When they make a 34 tooth biggest cog, I'll be the first to go for it.
Posted over in CDA group as well, but we're pretty close in numbers...Did CDA in 13 and Wisconsin in 14, raced both at about 183-185lbs. Changed cassette from 11-25 to 11-28 between the two and it was a game changer! This is my first year with power, and I, like you, have realized that I need to push at and above my FTP to get up hills. I think I had a pretty good race at Wisconsin, and though I was likely busting my figurative FTP, it was all about slow and steady in easiest gear to get up the hills while doing my best to keep my HR in check. I think I executed the course just about the best I could (except for the two near death experiences).
I'm looking forward to doing IMCDA with you and figuring out this "fat man up a steep hill" game. One of these days, I'm going to do a flatter course; maybe. If you get a chance, I recommend heading out to Hwy 7 towards Rainier and riding that route (I like Pack Experimental Forest to Rainier Park entrance - want to ride all the way up to Paradise this year); there are some very good long hills that aren't completely unlike CDA ~ and the trip back is quick:o)
Mark