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Getting to Z4/Z5 Bike wattage outdoors on flat terrain

And advice appreciated

I have no issue getting to and maintaining Z4/Z5 wattage on the bike when on hills or on an indoor trainer. I t is also the case that when I am doing this cadence is pretty low  (60-70)

On outdoor flat terrain if is very difficult for me to get above Z3 for more than a few minutes

Is this common? Are there some ways to work on increasing wattage on flats relative to hills? Do I just need much higher gearing so I can do the low cadence thing?

This dynamic may be a function of my riding in a pretty hilly area for many years.

 

Comments

  • I don't know what the answer is, but I find myself in a similar situation often.

    Power (watts) = Angular velocity (cadence) x Torque (power pushing on the pedal)

    For me, it's easier to push a harder gear than it is for me to turn the cranks above 90 RPM for any length of time. So, I will drop down the cassette a few cogs and push a bigger gear more slowly. It may not be the best things for my run, but during training it allows me to achieve the power numbers I am targeting by increasing the force required to turn the gears and letting my cadence come down to 78-84 RPMs, which feels more natural to me.

    To increase watts, you need to either turn the crank harder, faster or both. It's just math. image
  • How even is your pedal stroke? Are you pulling back when your foot is in the 6 o'clock position/scraping mud off the bottom of your shoe? I have really been trying hard to work on this on any terrain type it feels like it helps both flat and hill power output. Just a thought.
  • Dino, I hear you and agree and am also concerned with the damage using big gear can do to the run. Should we be incorporating cadence goals to go along with the wattage targets in our training intervals? I have not seen this done in any on the EN training plans. Would doing this help us in being prepared for flatter or more average tri courses?

    John, I had thought my stroke was smooth. Tomorrow I will focus on the 6 o'oclock scraping concept you describe and see how it goes
  • I don't know. I think it is widely understood (I could wrong. Sacred cows abound) that cadence is bit of a red herring. People seem to have a natural cadence that feels right. I subscribe to that. My run is typically in the high 80s if not right near 90, so I don't stress bike cadence much. The one exception was the original IMTahoe course. It had two sustained climbs per lap and focused on spinning where possible with a 32 tooth cog to save my legs. Other than that exceptional course, I give wattage my focus rather than cadence.

    Again, I don't know what the answer is. Just giving my n=1 and feeling your pain. image
  • Ken, I do a lot of cycling in the exposed desert. Wind is a major factor as you are totally exposed and the wind is usual around 40+ KPH.

    N=1, my perceived effort against the wind is it's much easier to achieve power numbers vs going with the wind. There is usually a 16 KPH difference with and without the wind.

    It's taken a lot of work, focus, and effort to achieve the same power numbers in the wind with a cadence in my normal range 88 - 92
  • Ken, good questions bro.

    Holding Z4 on a flat is an acquired and trained skill just like riding hills effectively.  Both skills are unique and must be acquired over time with lots of work / practice.

    I live in Texas were we do not have any significant elevation.  IMTX pays big dividends to one who can hold big power on a flat for a long time and hence, we train that way for that race.  This skill would not help me significantly at IM Boulder or IMLP (which I am racing in July) and therefore, my training focus will need to adjust accordingly.

    As David points out below, wind also makes it that much harder to hold a Z4 wattage target when going into the headwind.  On the Z5s, honestly I do those on the trainer given I do not have a lot of long steep hills here and I really have a hard time safely doing those outside they are so intense.

    Cadence, for me is purely individual.  Whether I am holding 300 watts at 65 or 85, I don't care as long as I am putting 300 watts on that back wheel.

    Trust the plan.  If your FTP baseline is accurate and you are hitting your targets, not exceeding, you should have enough in the tank to manage the run work as well. Takes practice over time.

    Good luck,

    SS

     

  • Thanks all, this morning I hit the flattest course in my area (still 1,300 feet for 27 miles), to see if working toward a smoother stroke would help. The answer is still unclear to me. That stated, I may be guilty of having horrible pedal stroke smoothness and inefficient position on the bike when my goals are set solely based on wattage targets.

    Shaughn, I agree with you completely that the skill on flatter terrain can be acquired through work / practice w and this has been a contributor to my issue. Still not clear if this will occur because pedal stroke gets smoother or muscles get adapted to something different. I guess it does not really matter.



  • @Ken:
    x2 what Shaugn said, it's an acquired skill

    I have done 20 min FTPs regularly on 100/bike path combination, downhill & up. probably hard on 100 north from the 120 light down the hill to the 124 light. Real nice 20min interval from the 124 light going north, you will end on the hill past King Kone. I have also done it going South on 100 from the 133 light, jumping onto the bike path and ending somewhere almost at the end of the bike path gets you a 20 min interval. coming back you will end on the uphill somewhere behind Club Fit.

    Let's plan on a Tues morning ride when I get back from TOC and we can do this together!

    Cadence is probably best in the 80-100 range, ideally in the 90s. I find on the trainer i tend to be in the mid 80s and that on the road around 90 which is optimal for me. There have been articles about riding the last few miles of a bike leg at a cadence similar to your run cadence to get set up for a run. I just choose to endure the first 2-3 miles of a brick or race until my legs open up :-)
  • Good deal Scott and thanks for the route.

    Have a great time getting stronger out there. See you when you get back

  • Brett Sutton wrote a couple of blog posts on cycling cadence that I think are very helpful. 

    trisutto.com

    trisutto.com

    My take on his opinion is that it is an individual thing, and if you don't naturally have a high cadence you shouldn't try to get it as you probably will not be able to make the adaptation. I also thought he raised a really good point on the impact of raising your heart rate on the bike (as happens when you try to keep a higher cadence) will have on your run. This makes sense to me. 

    Ken, based on this it seems like setting up your bike with bigger gears might make sense if you are not able to keep the power up on outdoor flat terrain.

  • David, that is really an interesting read. I would love for this to be the case and I do also find that at times moving the cadence higher raises heart rate too much for a given wattage.

    Regardless, I do suspect I need more exertion on flats and less on hills, even if this occurs at lower cadence.

    I think gearing it up for shorter raises makes sense, thanks for the thought
  • On the Cadence issue, We had some graphic representations of this on the TOC camp. While most people seem to spin around 90RPM, probably more, I was in that range, Dino Sarti mashed his pedals, slower cadence, strong grind. I'd be surprised if his cadence topped 80. That said he puts out enormous power and stays with the top of the group all day long. I think a bit of this isn't just what is optimal, but what is "optimal for me." No two people are the same and while there are norms that are identified because "most" people do Y, X may be better for a different individual.

    my $.02
  • I would agree with Shaughn and the rest that it is an acquired skill. One way I think about it is similar to when you first bought a power meter-- you're redefining what "work" really means. When riding on flats you have to really focus on those power numbers and not letting them drop until you acquire that idea that my legs feel like x, therefore I know that I'm pushing y % of my FTP. Once you practice and get to this point, it requires less looking at your PM dial to tell you. This is kind of what it's like when we race- get used to my legs feeling a certain way so I know I'm in my desired power range.

    I would say that you are capable of staying in z4/5 for as long as your interval work says, but that it will require more mental focus than you are used to compared to riding hills.
  • Keith,

    How about the mental focus needed to maintain a constant wattage at Amzof? Is it even possible?
  • I'd have to look back at my previous races to determine if that is possible, but my first reaction is "hell no"----especially coming out of the park on that first hill. However, I do think if you take out that section that you can do the rest pretty evenly paced with a compact.
  • @Ken:

    on any course, training or race, it is impossible to maintain constant wattage over a sharp downhill. My thought is to apply as much power as reasonably possible until you "spin out" at the higher speeds. At that point you focus on being as aero as possible to get the max benefit of free speed.



    A good method to track power is to be viewing your power on your bike for a "lap" and having either auto lap every four miles, or better a time alert set up for every 20 minutes. by viewing in lap mode, you can see your NP or IF for that lap and stay on track. If you use a longer interval, your variability index will swing wide without having a big effect on the overall number. the goal is to ride power as consistently as possible (a lower VI is better). By resetting your tracking frequently, you have to focus more on your number this way thus preserving your legs for the run if executed correctly. If you see a big descent coming, you can reset your garmin at the top and bottom of the descent, thus taking this lapse of power effort out of your equation for a given lap.



    make sense?
  • Scott, using the lap functions is a good idea. Makes sense that the value of average power over varied conditions is just not as meaningful as averages over like terrain.
  • it's not just a terrain issue, it is over time...
    If you are trying to ride at an IF of .7, after an hour, you could be riding at .9 and barely move the IF needle... THAT is the issue. keeping yourself in the proper NP/IF zone always. shorter tracked intervals swing quickly. it does take about 5-8 mins for NP to read properly, and then small adjustments keep you on target...
  • Scott, looks like we need a ride soon to try it out
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