Lumbar soreness - bike only
Continuing to get lumbar pain on the bike which does result in having to take longer time to recover so is impacting on training - tends to be when loading my hips on the road bike when shoving a bigger load up-hill - so, sitting back in the saddle & stressing the hips. Can go 20wk OS with no problems if I restrict the rides to turbo trainer only (same bike0 but as soon as I'm on the road I get the problem, perhaps its the impacts from the road?)
The 'pain' / soreness is pretty uniform and starts either side of the ASIS (see Leigh's excellent blog) - do have tenderness and constantly need to work the trigger-points either side (towards the outside, away from the spine, the outside of the ASIS).
Although I have suspicions as the cause - I'm especially interested in your view on this Leigh considering your knowledge & expertise in cycling/Tri related issues. I do suffer from a mild asymmetry (from what we can work out its functional) and do constantly need to work on glute activation activity - typical 'lazy glutes' when in flexion on the bike. The theory is that in order to load the pedals, my hips sink back in the saddle, my glutes/hams load up, the glutes don't fire & take their share of the work, so to maintain power I shunt the hips so loading the lower spine.
After a recent bike fit (for the Tri bike) the fitter (retul trained) put me in the 'flexible' range.
any suspicions?? Considering travelling to get some ART, the constant trigger point soreness perhaps indicates that I need to sort this issue first?
Thanks,
Dave
Comments
I'm assuming you were on the TT bike as you mentioned that you were recently fitted.
Moving back on the saddle will engage the low back and glutes more IF your hip angle closes a bit and we have a tendency to flex the lumbar spine, which inhibits lumbar extensor tone and stability. This is one reason the Adamo ISM saddle is so popular as it allows more neutral lumbar spine towards extension and allows a more open hip angle. This is a Jens Voigt position as somehow he can get a more neutral lumbar position even on a conventional saddle...most cannot and it likely a factor of individual anatomy.
Psoas shortening/tightness also contributes to the lumbar spine extensor issue. ART of the psoas along with warrior poses (yoga) will likely help. If they are tight then your low back will always be suspect and poor to recover.
Too high a saddle height is also a possible issue. Have someone ride behind you and when you are "fully engaged" have them check if your hips rock side to side. If so, your seat may be too high or you are a hammer head and need to up your cadence.
Other possiblities but I've got to spend time with the family. Keep us informed.
Vince
@Vince - thanks for your input. Nope, this was on my road bike not the TT bike although having had the roadie fitted several times I don't believe thats the issue - sure, the fact that most fitters put me on a bike that fits my inseam length (long) but not my average reach does mess things up a tad but in this case it is the muscle imbalance I get in the hips - I lack rotation in my right hip and as a consequence do twist off or 'shunt' my hips to the left - the result is similar to having a functional LLD; i.e. too much load on the spine in flexion.
The saddle idea is interesting if it keeps a neutral pelvis.
I was hoping Leigh (or anyone else) may have an observation that I haven't investigated - I find Leigh a rare commodity(!) - a professional that actually rides a bike and understands the bio-mechanics and likely chain reactions/movement patterns.
I'm hoping the steeper angled TT bike (I'm at 78 degrees) and weight on my forearms may take the load off my lower back - certainly won't be in that 'bad dead-lift' position that my road bike puts me in.
Totally see this and promise to respond by tonight. Sorry for the hold up- nutty morning at the office.
sorry for the hold up- sounds muscular to me. Quads and hip flexors are getting cooked and shutting down the hip, especially if the outer TFL is getting called in. That will wrench the lumbar spine where the hip flexors insert into the front part.
What have they done to balance out the functional LLD? anything?? if the hips drop or can't rotate, it makes sense that the calves/hammies would get fried and that you would only then have the quads/hips to power through.
what about cleat/shoe set up?? are you a toe down rider with the cleats all the way up? any wedges or stuff like that??
Hi Leigh & thanks so much for your input on this.
Yep, when I'm viewed on the trainer from behind, my left hip does drop when I'm fatigued - not necessarily at intensity but obviously they go hand-in-hand.
I tried wedging the left shoe once but caused almost immediate hip pain - perhaps as I wasn't cycling at 'fatigued state' at the time.
Cleat position is fairly conventional, with pedal spindle over the foot of the ball - I'm using speedplays now so could buy their extension plate to get more rearward on the shoe, more midfoot.
I have a long inseam - 93cm - all 'leg' for my height, maybe contributes to the problem.
The route I've been guided down is correcting the imbalance - doing a simple bridge exercise on the floor, face-up, lift one leg - reveals a weaker side.
Corrective exercises have been clams, leg-raises in bridge position, on the ball hip sways, the 'greyhound' , side-steps with elastic ankle bands, superman's on the ball.
Also, stretch every morning and stretch plus myofascial release/TP work in the evening - so, 2 sessions most days. Did stop the physio exercises after a 3 month block to fit the stretching work and training in - it was getting all too much, no time! Maybe I should have prioritised this work above all else.
Do wake during the night with stiff hips/lumbar - have a tendency to sleep on my front which I know doesn't help - ibuprofen helps to get an interupted sleep. Things are ways better now I'm stretching more & doing multi-sport rather than my previous bike only.
I have a slight scoliosis (slight) - although significant better now, I had a tendency to not orientate my bodyweight over my right side when walking plus limited right arm swing.
Probably many things going on there................ shoot me now!
if it were me, I'd start experimenting with the wedges and shoes. if one leg is dropping, saddle height requirements will be different for each leg so you will need to bring the other leg up to balance them out. all the stretching/strengthening in the world won't change that.
there will likely be some initial discomfort, but as the muscles settle in and get used to the new position, the hips will adapt.
out of curiosity- how're things on the tri bike with the steeper angle??
how aggressive is your road bike position?
So, if someone doesn't have a structural LLD then wedging still applies? OR, say, I have this functional LLD caused perhaps by a restricted right hip rotation/other hip-flexor tightness/myofascia adhesions wouldn't deep muscle massage like ART work? Thinking ART as a better way of releasing the hip.
Correct me if I'm wrong Leigh, but if I have that ongoing tightness in the hips, then strengthening may just reinforce the pattern?
Regarding road bike set-up - not too aggressive at all but with a seat height (from b/bracket) of 81cm its hard to find a bike with a tall enough headtube - currently at 8cm saddle to handlebar drop.
Tri-bike - had the retul fit from a physio so was the one that called me flexible - haven't ridden the tri-bike in anger at all as yet! Just finished OS so all rides from now on will be on the new bike.
Anything you'd expect to happen in this new position for me? I'm thinking it may open up those hips more but equally load up the quads which may start that chain-reaction once again? Perhaps on the tri bike I won't be sitting back in the saddle and loading up the hips like I do when climbing on the road bike.
So, I could try; 1) wedge up left cleat; 2) move cleats rearward towards mid-foot position and 3) get some deep tissue massage??
Thanks again!
D
Don't get me wrong, the ART and massage work are both great ideas and tools to help get rid of your current symptoms and muscle tightness. When I responded, I was thinking more long term solution since the majority of the stuff you are talking about is chronic and repetitive in nature (i.e. wasn't it a few months ago when you had the calf flare up on the left side??). That being said, the massage alone might not be the cure. Sure it will help with symptoms and overall mobility, but if the source is something in your setup (bike, run, or structural), it won't take too long for it to come back due to the volume/frequency of training.
Does that make sense??
Just another note: the wild card with bike stuff is technique. what we look like when we feel fresh and when we're tired are two different riders. add in the workworks philosophy and you're seeing both.
I see orthotics, wedges etc as perhaps more short to medium term that may end up being long term solutions - after-all, trying to unravel years & years of asymmetry aint gonna happen overnight is it, or in some cases ever.
Unless I actually take a year off completely to dedicate to nothing else but 're-hab' then perhaps I have to use what tools are available to alleviate the condition as much as possible.
Thanks again Leigh, has given me another perspective.
I know it's long term, focused and frustrating, but it can be corrected and fixed once and for all. Half the battle is knowing that the changes will be gradual. If it took years for the chain to break, it's going to take more than a quick fix.
Here's my advice:
1) start from the ground up when making your modifications. You can completely revamp everything at the hip and knee and get nowhere if something below the knee is off.
2) start small. You'd be amazed what a mm of change can do or a wedge or moving your cleats etc. will they be things you'll need forever? no, but they will be great tools to get you to that ideal alignment so that you can build the strength and flexibility required to maintain it.
3) don't make changes before your key quality or long workout of the week. Try to make them before frequency workouts.
4) use massage, ART, chiro, PT as your cavalry. When things are sore and tight and you can't stay ahead of the symptoms with rolling and stretching, time to get some help. with what you're doing it won't take many visits to get back in control. your PT can help you tweak and revamp your strengthening program and if you stop in or email them.
5) be patient. three sports brings lots of baggage so when something hurts in one, there's always the possibility that it's coming from one of the others.
Hi Leigh - just to check with you first - received my speedplay cleat shims this morning, they come in 1/8" thickness (approx 3mm) - altho' you said start small, given only 1/8 how would starting with 2 work out? (so, 2 x 1/8")
When I do start hip-dropping at intensity - to recap, its more my right hip-flexors becoming overloaded/fatigued/tight/restricted(!) that leads to the shunt over to the left which may cause the effects of hip-drop, i.e. to keep the power on I'm driving down with my left due to the right being ineffective. Poss' explains why my left VMO is visibly bigger than right - bizarrely I'm right-handed!
Anyways, would value your thoughts on the above - also, if I move the cleats back towards mid-foot, do I need to adjust saddle height at all?
Thanks,
Dave
PS. as an aside - during OS I did an FTP test on the trainer a few hours after a morning chiro adjustment - I smashed the watts but then struggled to get close in later sessions! Perhaps I was 'evened out' for the test - one physio I have seen observed that I was generating very little from my right side! Yikes!
I would start with one shim (3mm) just to play it safe.
seems miniscule but it can be a shock to the system. Last thing you need is a wopping case of fasciitis on top of it because your arch revolts.
when moving the cleats back, drop your seat accordingly.
! Also, my first 2 days outside on a TT bike, ever!
Both days road an moderately hilly course - seemed to have more power and easily on top of watts - sore lumbar only when not in aerobars! On climbs & sat-up the change in hip position was aggravating the lumbar - switch to aero position relieved the numbness almost immediately & allowed me to carry on my ABP ride for another 2hrs!
Day 2, remembered to lower saddle by 2mm to compensate for new rearward cleat position - again, sore in hips when not aero and also this time, pain starting on the left hip & not the usual right side!
So, going to raise saddle back up to original position & see how that goes - also, if left hip continues to flare up then perhaps see if I can buy a 1.5mm wedge.
Any thoughts leigh? Does that fact that a steep seat angle (78 degrees) and 'open hips' give any clues as to the root cause - weak psoas perhaps?
Thanks,
Dave
Sounds like progress so far.
The key is to be patient and to let the muscles adapt some to the new position. Raise the saddle back up and leave it there in other words. Because these are overuse symptoms, there will be no magical adjustment where everything just feels right. It will be more gradual as the muscles adapt.
The compact position with the steep angle forces you to be more efficient in your spin. When you sit up, all of that goes out the window and you are free to cheat. With that being said, still really hard to tell if it's the hip that's the problem or if that's where the chain broke and something else is the cause.
Thanks for the update!
p.s. sorry for the hold up. minimal access while at the ToC.