Trainer phys vs open road
During the offseason I spent lots of time on the trainer like most of you. The first 12 weeks I saw great gains and was able to grind the workouts as prescribed. The past many weeks I just do not feel comfortable on the trainer regardless of which bike I use. My legs get tight, my cadence drops, PE is higher than my HR or wattage dictate.... I cannot finish an FTP interval yet on the road I can and push higher numbers than ever.
Using my last 28 day power chart I have my biggest drop off after 315-330 watts. My last successful FTP test on the trainer in Dec was 290 watts, yet I cannot complete a 270 watt FTP for 13 mins. I try a variety of cadence variations but the PE is much too high.
Do we have a physical finite season limit on trainer rides? Anyone else experience this? I cannot explain it.
Vince
Comments
I have experienced this and attributed it more to mental burnout than physical although that certainly is a possibility.
Vince, once I unchain my bike from the drainer come March, I'm done with it. As long as I have light, I'll ride outside in any weather.
I had to go back to the trainer after ToC last year for a month and I was miserable. I'm sure it's all mental. After 4 months of pounding out OS workouts, I can't imagine locking into the trainer again until Nov.
Bikes were meant to ride outside!
Dave
I guess I have to be the spoiler, I love my trainer and don't mind the inside rides. But.... I can't ride forever on them. The most is maybe 1.5 hours whereas outside I can go as long a necessary. Right now my situation may be different from others too as far as family commitments are concerned, being inside allows me to be right there if my wife needs help with our infant or other 2 misfits. I also have peace of mind that I won't get hit by a random car and miss their youth!!! (I guess that would bother me anyway!) leaving them so young and my wife alone and with them alone. So mentally I guess I am ready to give up some open road for a couple of seasons.
Dan
@Dan - My record for staying on the trainer is 2:20 while watching the IMLOU video from CT. My mind was more fried than my legs!
As you know, we seem to be going through something similar. I popped this winter, stopped absorbing all work, and now am basically back to where I was at the beginning of the OS, whether inside on the road bike, or outside on the tri bike. I'm still optimistic to see a small bump in the coming week or two from getting used to the tri position.
I think that there are a couple of things going on.
1) for some people, the trainer is a mental thing. I'm not sure this is your case, as it never was before. I know it's hard to hear people tell you "it must be in your head", when you really believe otherwise. FWIW, I don't think it's in your head.
2) There's little doubt that riding the trainer is different from outside. Just hard to say how. We see people consistently have a 10-15W bump getting off the trainer. That's not coincidence. For your big FTP, could be a bigger bump (same percentage).
3) I've also become very aware recently how 'quad-dominant' I'd become while riding. It occurred to me that my glutes weren't nearly as involved in the stroke as they could be. I've been paying attention to it more recently, and seeing a difference in the way I fatigue. I don't really have solid evidence for this, but I think that riding on the trainer emphasizes the things (whatever they are) that makes us cycle in a more 'quad-dominant' fashion, which would certainly lead to earlier fatigue.
4) Just a thought, but it could be that the times you find yourself needing to ride on the trainer correlate highly with the times you are under-rested going into training. I know that, this winter, I was not getting the kind of rest I needed to keep working as hard as I was, which was a big contributor to all the difficulties I have. If you're squeezing workouts in on the trainer in the dark, are you sacrificing sleep to do it?
Mike
Vince, just another thought. What bike and saddle are you riding on the road? What bike and saddle are you riding on the trainer?
Mike
I cannot absolutely discount the mental aspect because I think with a gun to my head...I could get the work done BUT the PE is so high relative to before. My PE on the road isn't nearly as high and I'm putting more wattage out. It's almost like my body has become so accustomed to a certain range of work that anything outside those ranges are inefficient. For instance, I can sit on 240 watts norm for 5-6 hours. I can hold an on road FTP (according to the bin method) of 315-330 but I cannot sit on the trainer and hold 250-270 watts for 15 mins. My legs get tight and pumped up like Quadzilla.
On the road I do not stand much so that's not the variable.
My road bike of choice right now is a Cervelo R3 that is set up very aggressively. I have a Specilized Toupe' saddle.
My Ridley Dean has a Cobb saddle...Max Flow or Max Plus...similar to Adamo.
I had the same issue on my Guru with the same saddle you have Mike G, which is the saddle I rode during nearly all my OS trainer rides and I did my best FTP test on.
This wouldn't be an issue but I like the trainer for consistency, safety and ease when I cannot get out the door. I prefer to find a number and hold it on the trainer as I get a better workout than constantly shifting to hold wattage with the variables of the road.
In regards to the quad-dominant I would agree with you Michael. It is very apparent that my quads just blow up on the trainer. When I'm on the road my hammys and glutes kick in and get tight/sore especially on the roadbike. I carry a lower cadence on the trainer as a 90+ cadence is exhausting on the trainer yet I hold 90+ as natural selection on the road.
Could it be my trainer is giving me less interia with age? In other words, some people talk about trainers having a better "feel" than others. I would imagine a "watt is a watt" and feel shouldn't be an issue but just wondering if that is a link.
Also, I began doing yoga again and the flexibility is returning. I stopped in Dec sometime due to time constraints. Just wondering if reduced flexibility of tissues from the hard OS training plays a role in ability to clear lactate.
Vince
I cannot absolutely discount the mental aspect because I think with a gun to my head...I could get the work done BUT the PE is so high relative to before. My PE on the road isn't nearly as high and I'm putting more wattage out. It's almost like my body has become so accustomed to a certain range of work that anything outside those ranges are inefficient. For instance, I can sit on 240 watts norm for 5-6 hours. I can hold an on road FTP (according to the bin method) of 315-330 but I cannot sit on the trainer and hold 250-270 watts for 15 mins. My legs get tight and pumped up like Quadzilla.
On the road I do not stand much so that's not the variable.
My road bike of choice right now is a Cervelo R3 that is set up very aggressively. I have a Specilized Toupe' saddle.
My Ridley Dean has a Cobb saddle...Max Flow or Max Plus...similar to Adamo.
I had the same issue on my Guru with the same saddle you have Mike G, which is the saddle I rode during nearly all my OS trainer rides and I did my best FTP test on.
This wouldn't be an issue but I like the trainer for consistency, safety and ease when I cannot get out the door. I prefer to find a number and hold it on the trainer as I get a better workout than constantly shifting to hold wattage with the variables of the road.
In regards to the quad-dominant I would agree with you Michael. It is very apparent that my quads just blow up on the trainer. When I'm on the road my hammys and glutes kick in and get tight/sore especially on the roadbike. I carry a lower cadence on the trainer as a 90+ cadence is exhausting on the trainer yet I hold 90+ as natural selection on the road.
Could it be my trainer is giving me less interia with age? In other words, some people talk about trainers having a better "feel" than others. I would imagine a "watt is a watt" and feel shouldn't be an issue but just wondering if that is a link.
Also, I began doing yoga again and the flexibility is returning. I stopped in Dec sometime due to time constraints. Just wondering if reduced flexibility of tissues from the hard OS training plays a role in ability to clear lactate.
Vince
Vince, my first reaction is to ditch the Specialized saddle. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was a factor in my problems this Jan/Feb. The Specialized Romin hits the back of my leg in a way that it nearly "shuts off" my hamstrings entirely. Getting off that saddle was a big step in the road to recovery. I believe that the Toupe is quite similar. Try putting a V Flow Max on the road bike that's on the trainer, and give it a couple of rides.
Also, do you do any movement prep work prior to your trainer rides, to get your glutes/hammys firing before getting on the bike? I've found that some of Verstegen's movement prep stuff from Core Performance does help with the quad-dominant, high PE feeling on the trainer.
Good luck!
Mike
Which movement prep stuff? I have his book somewhere around here. I'm willing to give it a go. Suggest away.
The toupe' does hit the back of my hamstring/glute tie-in in the downstroke as does the Romin. I noticed this 2 weeks ago as I rode 3 days in a row: 92 miles, 55 miles and 50 mile recovery (easy effort with my wife and eldest son). By Sunday my upper hammys were sore from the seat not from riding.
I will order another V Flow for my roadbike and give you feedback when I get some time on it.
Thanks
Vince
Vince, I definitely experienced the same thing during the OS this year. Here is my theory on it. When I'm riding my trainer 3 times/week during the OS, I am using the_exact_same_muscles in my legs every time I ride for the entire duration of the ride. At the instensity we ride, doing that over and over 3x/week with no change in position for several months can lead to completely overcooking the legs, esp. if we do not stand down when we're starting to feel over-cooked (which I was definitely guilty of this OS).
When I go out on the road, though, I get to ride up and down hills, and it changes which muscles in my legs I need to use depending on whether I am going uphill, downhill, or on a flat. That little change in the exertion of different parts of the muscles is enough for me to be able to ride much harder outside without completely nuking my muscles and then asking the very same portions of those muscles to work again the next stime out.
I'm not sure if that's it or not - but at least that's what I've convinced myself about why cummulative fatigue in my legs seems so much more accute after lots of intensity on the trainer compared to the same instensity out on the road.
That's an interesting perspective. I never stood/stand on the trainer so I'm right there with you.
This weekend I rode my roadbike on Friday and the TT bike on Sat with the group ride. Friday was 2xFTP @ 15', 3x15@80-85% then 80% home. I was .84 IF for 3.5 hours and hit all my FTP goals without issue. Sat on the TT bikes I pulled most of the day with a group that I always sucked a wheel with. It was flat and we averaged 23.3 mph for 82 miles...again, no issues other than I was tired from Friday's workout.
Tues is another trainer day and I will see if I can hold the numbers. If not...then maybe I will just have to forego Tuesday bike workouts at this point.
Vince