Getting to Varsity on the IM Run - I just want 5mins
I’m trying to find 5 minutes on my IM marathon time between now and my A race in 12 weeks.
Simple answer, I know, is “raise your VDOT.” Problem is … I’ve tried, it’s sticky, or I’m at some kind of run plateau. Going by the last 4 or 5 well-executed races I’ve completed, I’m a 3:30* IM runner, give or take a few. But I’ve been a 3:30 IM runner for 4 or 5 years now, and I want to be a 3:25 runner.
To try to get there, I’ve followed plans to the letter, tweaked plans, dropped the tweaks and re-followed the plans, drank the koolaid, executed wisely, raced lean, eaten well, run focusified during OS, paced appropriately and have more-or-less internalized the EN approach. I can pee while I’m running and not drop pace. I run the tangents. I’ve tried whatever I could think of - within the narrow range of my imagination, maybe - to find those 5 minutes. Still not there. Earlier this OS, I had a glimmer of hope during the v02 block where I was clocking a bit faster than previous years, but the speed didn’t materialize. So now, I’m creeping up to the end of OS, and looking at my run metrics in comparison to previous years. They’re almost exactly where they have always been at this time.
If I do things EN-correct – like I have other years - between now and race date, and execute well on The Day, I’ll end up with … a 3:30. So help me shake up my perspective a bit, EN.
-Are radical changes the only way to get 5mins at this point?
-And can these happen in-season?
-What is ‘radical’? Is it a day off per week? Altitude training? 10h nightly sleep? A high-octane vo2 run block in race season? Pool running? A hour of visualizing per day?
-is radical possible while still being in-plan? I like EN a lot. It works.
-Or just more run focusify and patience? thinking on an earlier comment of Al’s about “athletic age” (maybe he called it something else), it was suggested it really takes ~10 years or so of endurance training to hit your potential. should I instead be taking the long view on this, and realizing that after 1o or so years, I’ve pretty much topped out at 50 +/- 2 VDOT, and should instead refocus my big picture strategy to be an uberbiker? (I get it that the IM run is inseparable from bike fitness. And even though there’s always more bike fitness out there to gain, I feel like I top this out every year, and there would be diminishing returns or a large recovery cost to putting in the massive stuff required beyond where I am now. Maybe I’m wrong, but I still think it comes down to raw run speed that I’m lacking.)
Appreciate input from anyone, newbies and WSMs alike.
-Dave
*the 3:30s have actually been faster than I have the ‘right’ to run … these have been on VDOTs of 50 and 52 (I think), which really should have led to slower run splits. For whatever reason , they didn’t, and I was faster.
Comments
Dave,
deep post. I can tell that you've been thinking a lot about this, and I'd like to try to contribute. But I need to ask a few questions, first:
Hope to help you get to the bottom of it, and find those 5 minutes!
Mike
Do you allow yourself to push beyond your run training zones or do you stick to them by the letter?
You mentioned that you have run faster in a IM than you vdot said you should have, how does you 5k, 13.1, 26.2 and HIM and IM run results compare?
I pretty much stayed at the same vdot most of last year, and then this year I was stuck at the same paces again so I went and started doing track workouts with a local running club and guys faster than me. Within a few weeks I saw some gains because of the change to my workouts and motivate of being around guys much faster. The other time in my life that I saw a big increase in run fitness was when I took a year off from tri's and focused only on a half and full marathon.
CC
When you say you ran faster during those 3:30 IM's than your Vdot would allow- would you say those runs were "really challening- I gave it all I had- I crossed the finish line spent and couldn't go another step" or were they "I ran strong, it was hard but I was control and finished feeling good"?
First, thanks to all for the input. The constructive stuff that comes out of the EN community never fails to amaze me.
Second, my post might have tastes of "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." and while I think this is true for, say, building geodesic domes, for long course triathlon, I really do think one could continue to do the same thing year over year, and still make progress and gains ... it's just that mine have stalled.
@Mike:
1. What's your A race? Are you doing a 12 or 20 week build? (A race is Ironman Regensburg, first week in August. I'm actually trying to stay in OS for as long as possible, so I'll be doing a 10 week build. But I have a recent ~3300 TSS epic camp to call on for a head start on the 'far.' B Race is Canada 4 weeks later, unless I qualify for Kona in Germany.)
2. is your past experience on the same course you'll be racing, or different? (Never raced the course as its the inaugural year. I hear 'challenging bike,' which means something very different in Germany than it does in these parts. I've done Roth nearby, but I think the two might be apples and oranges. All that said, I do pretty well on terrain.)
3. Has your Vdot been constant across all of these last races? How many OS's have you been working to try to improve it? (I've been working on improving VDOT, or predecessor metrics, since the days of CF. Although I didn't run with a GPS until last season, I had at least a few years of 'fast then far' on my legs before that, and had been putting a lot of my training miles in on measured courses or the track pre-Garmin.)
4. What is the range of Body weights you've maintained across those performances? How does it compare to your 'ideal' weight? (145 to 146 for every IM in the last 5 years. This is 'ideal' insofar as it's stupid light and light for my frame. Not had a body fat% at that weight, tho)
5. Ever had any feedback on technique? Nope. Very conscious of it, but never feedback)
6. What kind of shoes do you wear? short / go-to pair: Asics 21XX series. Long run: Kayano.
7. Do you do core strengthening work? For years. Year-round. Good flexibility program too.
@Matt1:
Only occasionally do I allow going much sweeter than goal paces. And then, it's typically only in TP work. I overcook VERY easily during the highest-intensity periods of OS, so I am probably conservative on this, preferring instead to save some for HMP at the end.
@Matt2:
Nope, no form or technique, but that's two suggestions and counting, so I'm listening. Nor have I done group track work or much running with faster runners ... again, choosing self-preservation. Let me swish this idea around.
And, the most valid recent test I have for an open run was a HM a week or so before my last IM in November 09, and this put me at about 51 (I think ... i might have to look at the Data tool and edit). The month before that, I ran an IM in something like 3:35. Most recent IM, if I executed following the EN pacing model (first 6 at EP+30, EP to 18, then run), should have been something like 3:50, but it was 3:30. Negative split in both races, nothing left in the tank.
@Carrie:
You IMSG finishers are heroes. That looked like a freakin' tough day no matter how you slice it. Well done!
@Nemo
See, the 10/1 is the kind of radical thing I'm talkin' about! Keep it coming! Using the data set of Aug/Nov 09 IMs, the runs were controlled and steady, neg splits, and the last 8mi as very very hard. Needed to be scraped off pavement after crossing the finish in both.
keep it comin'. My continued thanks - lots to percolate during tonight's swim!
I have to agree with Nemo on the run/walk. I have heard interviews with Bobby McGee talking about how the best runners would be even faster with a run/fast walk protocol. He says he can get ITU athletes sub-30 in their 10K if they would let him. Also, Jon Newsom from IM Talk has been raving about the results of his athletes using the methods. Guys breaking 3 hours good, in open marathons. May be worth a shot. Wait a minute, why am I not doing this?
Oh, and I would love to have your 3:30 marathon time. Hope you get your 3:25!
I offer some voodoo, not training or race execution advice, which I suspect you already have wired. I preface my advice by saying - it worked for me!
Wear racing flats for the IM marathon.
Your racing weight is the same as mine. For years, I trained and raced in Asics 20/21XX. In 2001, in my second IM, I tried racing in flats (Addidas Cubatos or something like that), about 5-6 oz per shoe. I was worried about my feet not handling it, so I put the old clunkers in the special needs bag, just in case. Didn't need 'em, and had a successful IM, running 4:22.xx. Came back home and was roundly chastised by long time runners (I had only been running for about 30 months at that point in my life) for risking my life and limbs, and dropped the idea. Did 6 more IMs, and, despite running the whole way each time (with aid station walking), never got within 7 minutes of that again.
In 2006, I took a pair of racing flats and the Ascis to Kona, and alternated using the shoes on the same course on successive days. I was shocked to discover 30 sec/mile difference with the same HR. Used them in that race, and set a PR (granted, by seconds) in the marathon (in Kona heat!) despite walking about 2-3 miles total out of the last 10.
Ever since, I've done the IM marathons in the lightest shoes I could find. Right now I use Asics Piranha SP, 3.9 oz/shoe (size 11, weighed on a postal scale). My last four IMs have been 4:06, 05, 08, 03. The only "injuries" I get are an occasional black toenail.
Throughout this whole time, my 5K times and my HIM times have been very consistent, 20:07-20:20 and 1:34-1:37, so my run fitness and underlying speed have not improved. And my training logs demonstrate very consistent yearly mileages in biking and running.
I know it sounds like off the wall advice, but, like I said, it worked for me. It took a leap of faith, bolstered by some actual in my face data about the speed difference flats offer.
Let me piggy back on the body weight too. The standard rule of thumb for running is that each pound over your ideal weight costs you 2 seconds per mile run. Since you want to cut 5 mins (300 secs), that's 300/26.2/2 = 5.7 lbs. You have time to drop the weight sensibly providing it is not below your optimum racing weight.
As always a great thread. I hope folks realize you have a 9:45 to your credit and are at the pointy end of the race. 5' in an IM marathon should totally be doable...FWIW, I run 3:25 marathons at 185 lbs...you race 40lbs lighter than me, so it's not a body comp issue (don't get any leaner!!).
One hack I have used in the past is do to my long runs harder than written (everyone else turn off the volume here please!), doing run walk. So if my long run would average out to be 7:15s, say, I would do 10' run / 1' walk but run at 6:45s or 6:50s. I was able to rack up lots of time at a faster training pace without (really significant) signs of cumulative fatigue.
You could, per Matt's earlier thread, be ready for a run block where you stand down (gasp!) from Ironman for a year and run run run before returning. I think you might not have an athletic age situation yet, but that we all have an aerobic BANDWIDTH issue, in that it's hard to see gains in any one sport while we maintain the other stuff as we train for IMs...
My 2 cents...
P