Hills..bloody hills
So If I learned anything at Wildflower I learned I Suck at hills. Turns out indoor training and training along a Lake Shore doesn't lead itself to awesome hill training.
I already run a compact crank. However, it didnt magically make me a mountain goat, so I guess i need to work on strength more. I am new to EN, so I didnt get an OS training plan in before I started training for IM France.
I plan on going to to madison to try the hills at IM Wisconsin in preparation, but thats just not feasible every ride. Also there is part of the week I may need to do indoor training, due to scheduling issues.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how I can get stronger on the bike? I noticed that when I went up hills in Wildflower I couldnt keep my power under the wattage prescribed by EN, in fact, in the lowest gear my watts were at least 100 or so over the FTP. I think my ftp may be off a bit, but thats another story.
Does doing the intervals such as 30/30 help with hills by raising power? Or does it come down to the only way to get stronger on hills is to do them. Obviously I want to get on them as much as possible..but not reasonable during the work week for me. Any indoor recommendations for increasing hill work? Can anyone impart magical hill powers upon me?
Comments
Jason,
the best way to think of hills in a triathlon is as if they aren't even there. If you're racing with power, your watts dictate how fast you go. 200 watts up a hill vs. 200 watts on a flat = the exact same thing to your body. Of course, you're going much slower on a hill...
The hardest thing about racing this way is getting used to just how achingly slow you'll go up steeper hills. This is just the price of admission to racing well. If you're racing at a number (pick 200 watts), and that means that you're going 4-5 mph, well, that's what it is. If there are people next to you that are going 7mph, you've gotta know that they're either a) lighter than you, b) much stronger than you, or c) doing something stupid. All three are things you can't do anything about.
There is no magic to doing work on hills. The physiology is the same. Doing FTP work is doing FTP work. The only thing that can make you faster on the hills is a) increasing your FTP (which the EN plans are designed to do) or b) decreasing your body weight (which I don't know if it's applicable to you or not).
Mike
For that reason, I think it's best to have some hill work, but do remember watts are watts when the race comes around.
The other important thing is to get a new cassette. If you can't go up the hills at less than FTP+100, then you need to get some "easier" gears! That kind of think would toast all of us!
@Jason - Haven't done the WF course, so no clue about the hills there personally. I know that while there are SOME hills that you can't go up without spiking watts, there not as frequent as we tend to believe. There were some hills in the Saranac Lake region in NY and here in the VA region that I've done where I was convinced I couldn't climb them at IM race watts (and we're talking anemic values of like 140-150w here). However with, like Mike said, patience and focus I realized that for many hills it actually IS possible to go up them at these low watts values - you just go slower than molasses in January, like Mike also mentioned. However I found that spiking my watts I wasn't really climbing the hills that much faster (8 mph v 4 mph really isn't that big of a deal when you're talking about 190w[100%] v 150w [~75%]) but was cooking my legs for later.
Don't know what your w/kg is, but that's basically the key to hilly courses - or so I've been led to believe. So there are two ways to get better, lower the kg and/or raise the watts. Go for the low hanging fruit, if you're already svelte and have a good body comp then focusing on kg doesn't make any sense. But if you're carrying around a significant amount of useless adipose tissue, then making a concentrated effort to lose that could pay great dividends. I'm currently 176# (80 kg) @FTP of 195w, ~2.4 w/kg; if I lose 22# (10kg) but my FTP remains constant I go up to ~2.8 w/kg. If I stay the same weight however I need to increase my FTP to ~224w to get the same effect on w/kg. Of course if I can manage to do BOTH and get to 70kg @ 224w, then I end up at 3.2 w/kg and now we're cooking with gas!
William, yes they feel different. Usually, because you sit up on the hoods, slide back on your seat, and find a more powerful position. It's closer to a road bike position, with the commensurate higher FTP. But that definitely doesn't account for a 100+W difference.
I think that the myth of "hill training" to get better on hills has been perpetrated far enough, and just wanted to try to clear the record. You can train for a hilly race in the mountains, in the flatland, or on the trainer. The only thing that matters, when push comes to shove, is W/kg, and execution. If you can nail those two, you'll be fine on any course. If you can't, different story.
I had a funny experience at a sprint last year. The bike leg was rolling a lot. I was using the power meter as a whip, to keep me slightly over FTP. But the run was flat, and I knew that it was the key to success. For the entire 2nd half of the race, this one dude would fly past me on the uphills, and I'd pass him just over the crest and gain on the downhills. This repeated so many times, I was laughing towards the end.
After I smoked him on the run, he came up to me, and said "that was quite the back and forth on those hills!" I replied "yeah, you really seem to get uphill quick!" To which, his response was "yeah, I've been working on hills a lot this year." I didn't have the heart to tell him that he ought to work on going over the top and back down the other side every once in a while, too...
Mike
So, that's really the point I'm trying so say about practicing with some real hills. It's one thing to "have the book" about how to execute a hill climb, but another to actually do it. Just getting some practice actually doing it is a good thing I think. A lot of courses in my neighboorhood (IA/KS/WI/etc) are full of rolling hills. No giant mountains, but lots of rollers. Once I started to drink the Kool Aid about how to hit them correctly, I still had to learn how to properly shift, etc etc etc. That's all I mean... Rollers are different than going straight up a very steady 4% incline or whatever...and learning how to deal with the terrain isn't that big a deal but some practice helps. Or at least it helped me.
Enjoyed your story about the Sprint. :-)
And yes, 100W means something is really wrong. Either attacking it altogether wrong or gearing is altogether out of whack.
William
@Jason, all very good advice here from the crew (nice work, crew!)
What is your FTP, how much do you weigh, and what's your w/kg?
What is your gearing on the bike?
WF has some major hills, no doubt, but none of them are truly stoopid steep (Beach Hill, at mile 1 of the bike, is close to truly stoopid steep). There are still significant parts of the course where you can really motor. The rub for WF is the run. If you execute the bike poorly or don't show up with good run legs, that run course will just smack you around right out of T2. Also, for whatever reason, many, many people racing WF just don't know how to race that course. I've ridden ~2:35-36 on that course and have been passed by MANY people on Beach, the hills out of the park, on Nasty Grade, etc. Like Mike said, when I'm @ ~4.2w/kg, climbing up Nasty at 290-300w, and getting passed by dudes 20lb heavier and out of the saddle...I just smile.
weight 179
w/kg =2.84
Gearing on the bike..I have no idea, 9 in the back, 2 in the front. I bought it used.
Beach hill and nasty grade i got so slow, and pushed so many watts, that I just walked a few minutes (same damn speed anyway) then got back on and felt better, even though I still had hill to go. The other hills werent bad, and sometimes I crested and passed people according to EN rules
IM working with nutritionist to lower my weight I already dropped 3 lbs in the past few weeks!
Before I came to en my coach mostly had me doing lsd runs and rides, so I could probably go out and damn near do an IM, but it would be really slow. thats what attracted me to EN, that maybe.. I could use my time more efficiently and go faster. I kinda think my FTP needs to be higher, since I know last year on flat lands I Could average 25-27mph for an hour or 2, but now I don't think I could. I think the focus on slow, has taken what power I had gained last year and thrown it out the window.
Oh and the run did smack me around for the first half/ but the second half I actually ran the entire thing at my half im pace.
You should befriend my substitute chiropractor, who is an insane cyclist and thinks IM France is the only "fun" IM bike course -- all the North American ones are way too flat.
I've only done one race EN style, but I had a stoopid slow bike ride at Steelhead in nasty wind, but just concentrated on numbers -- and had fun flying down the rollers while almost everyone around me looked miserable. Noob 70.3 then got to the run and passed 69 people in the last three miles. Patience works.
And maybe riding a lot in Barrington? That's part of my IMWI hill strategy. Are you going to Madison to ride Memorial Day weekend?
I am looking forward to Madison, I always want to go up there, but hesitant to try it the first time by myself. I am going to Kettle Morrain Sat. Should be fun.
I'll find out the gearing, I knew what you were talking about but never got around to actually counting the teeth. Maybe I just paid for my laziness
Jason,
Count the teeth in the big ring and small ring and the largest cog in back and the smallest cog in back and report back
Jason bought my first tribike back a few years ago.....small world
I think the bike had 11-23 if I remember correctly but its been three+ years....I don't remember it having compact cranks unless you put them on.
The best way to get faster is get lighter and then get stronger. You earn the right to push more watts by lifting your FTP (doing those intervels every week).
In training, crush yourself up and the hills and recovery down.....When you move into race prep, then just stare at the watts as you go up the hill and work on staying below FTP as the red zone and within the EN gears if possible.
Like others have said, first fix the gears, and then get some practice riding hills. I don't believe one bit that you need to train on hills to get strong, but I do believe you need to learn how to ride the new way on hills and it takes a little be of practice to get it.
As already mentioned, get to Barrington and you can get a few decent hills in and join us on Memorial Day Weekend and the July Camp in Madison. There will be more than enough hills for you at both.
The rest of the time, just build the FTP... no hills required for that. FWIW, I also do one workout a week on the trainer year round. Due to daylight/life it is just easier and I know that I get a quality workout in without having to start and stop.
One thing that helped me control the watts going uphill was something Rich said in one of the bike execution podcasts. It was directed to HR athletes but I found it helpful. Essentially he suggested we pay attention to the pressure put on the pedals. In doing so you start to notice how tense you are and how much you mash the pedals. Slowly you start to realize that you can climb most hills without spiking the watts. Sure you’ll be dropped on the way up but if you keep your effort and watts steady from one side to the other you’ll end up way in front.
Rich, hopefully I didn’t misinterpret too much.
I have thought about this as well, i.e., whether it's worthwhile doing the shorter interval ride on my plan indoors. (I'm doing a HIM plan, so it's Wednesday and 60-90 minutes of FTP or VO2 intervals) What's the conventional wisdom around here regarding getting used to doing those things out on real roads (additional "skill" required) vs the value of for sure hitting the work?
Thanks,
Wm
Seriously, the only downside is that if you have a lower indoor FTP, you won't be pushing as many watts on those indoor days. OTOH, there are many folks (even pros) who swear by doing their serious interval stuff indoors to get the kind of control they need.
I'm enough of a newbie here that I have yet to do my first outdoor FTP test. Was using the Coggan protocol for indoor over the winter (before I joined here). Different number I'm sure, but good enough to track progress. I'm sure I'll have a bit of a learning curve on how to do the outdoor test as 2 x 20, unfortunately.
+1
My gearing is 50/36 in the front and 23/12 in the back
Explains a lot! I would highly recommend a 50/34 in front and a 27/12 or 28/12 in back. Will make a huge difference.
Right now, you have 36 in the front, changing to a standard compact 34 would make it easier to hold target watts.
As for the rear cassette, you've got a 23, a switch to 26, 27 or a 28 would be a step in the right direction. A 34 in the rear is a bit extreme, you'd be mountain bike territory with that and may require a different rear derailleur.
Going through a LBS is not a bad idea. You want to make sure what you get is compatible with your RD, like Cary said.
Just my 2 cents: If you are going with a compact crank (50/34), I would go with a 11-25 or 11-27. If you are sticking with the standard crank (53/39), then go with 12-27 or 12-28. You probably wont need the 11 in either case, but with the compact it may be nice to have for the downhills.