Is there "inherent" value in the Long Run as a "long run?"
On Strava I've noticed several of EN speedy, skinny, runner-types...and their fookin' 6:35 pace "steady runs" 
...splitting their long runs into two sessions...I think. Anyway, today I did a 9+ mile run with some good tempo work and I've been banging out 40+ mile run weeks for a few weeks and it got me thinking...
I've been getting in this volume through frequency vs going super long on a long run...though the consistent mileage has enabled my long run to be longer now than it has been at this time of the season in the past. So I started thinking about how I could split my usual 14-16mi Thurs run into two sessions, as a repeat of this tempo loop (without the Tempo) in the AM and then a steady 7mi loop in the PM. My thoughts are:
- The average pace of these two runs would definitely be faster -- and likely better form, probably lower recover cost, would get some heat adaptation in the PM, etc -- then one long run in the AM.
- For someone without Ironman experience, I definitely think that the experience of managing and pushing through the final miles of a long run is a great learning experience. But more experienced athletes have already been there, know what's coming for them on race day, so to speak, so I feel that splitting the long run into two session that net more volume at a better pace may be a better way to build pure running durability and fitness.
Anyway, for those of you splitting up your long runs, what observations do you have given my thoughts above?
Comments
I read advanced marathoning and in that book it says not to do two-a-day runs until your mileage is up to 70+ mpw, and it only recommends splitting recovery runs, or doing an AM recovery run with a PM workout, it never has a split long run in a plan. However, the marathoner is not crushing themselves on the bike for 8 hours and doing 3-4 hours of swimming a week as well. I am curious to see what the plans are of others!
Edit:
I am structuring my split runs by doing the hard work in run #2, the first is just running along and a hilly route, pushing the pace, but not suffering. The 2nd run I have been running a flat course trying to hit certain splits and getting the heart rate up!
Skinny, runner type, but no longer speedy...Specific to the value of "long" runs to IM race day performance - I just reviewed all my long runs (defined as > 13.9 miles) and found that my best marathon splits were preceded by 2-3 long runs of 2:10-2:20 in the two months before. This worked out to to 15-17.25 miles. I never split 'em. I think someone training for a stand alone marathon will need to run twice a day, sometimes 2 x 10, if they want to achieve peak performance.
What do we need as IM athletes? First of all to not be injured, so anything which helps that is a plus. If you are doing 14-16 miles at a pop this far out from IM WI (2 months?), then, yeah, splitting is probably a good idea. But I think you'll need 2-3 runs between weeks 6 and 3 to go before the race, of 2.25 hours +/- in order that manage the second half of the run on race day.
This year, leading into IM LP, I did throw down a 17.25 miler, and an 18 miler, because I was beginning to doubt my running the past few years, and needed the confidence booster I got from pushing the pace the last 30-45 minutes.
I can't tell you how it will impact me until after the race but what I can tell you is that I can get in similar or even more volume at much lower cost. I've done 2 x 10 each of the last two weeks at 6:45 ish for both runs and essentially no recovery. This past weekend I had a limited window later in the day so couldn't do a split run and instead opted for a single 16 miler. I went out at 6:45 but ended up averaging 6:55. I am still feeling 24 hours later...mostly in the knees as I felt my form slip the last few miles.
I think there is certainly value in both volume and duration. I'll plan to transition away from the split run in a few weeks to get in a 16, 18, 20, and another 16 miler before the last two taper weeks.
Keeping form is critical to success. Yes, training in two sessions helps keep good form, balance is on race day when you get tired have you practiced staying focused to keep your form good. EN has taught me that you have to practice, practice, practice. Focus on form when you get tired is definitely worth practice. Coach, I have listened to many a "swim at a speed that allows for good form" Running is no different. Just my $.02
I'm really slow, especially since my injury BUT lately I've had time to read a bit and some things seem to be true, especially of age groupers. We all do our speed work too slow (hard work too easy), and our slower runs too fast (easy work too hard).
On splitting the long runs. My husband is a marathoner and a high volume guy. He splits his Sunday run. I split mine last Saturdy for the first time. Instead of killing myself at a dead slog and eeking out 6 miles and being in pain for two days... I ran 4 in the morning and 4 in the evening (they say you should wait at least 8 hours between sessions). So I got in 8, felt good, and put in 3 hours on the trainer on Sunday.
Thanks all for the input. Clearly I didn't give you guys the answer I was looking for, which was "No, Rich, you don't need to do any runs longer than about 13 miles"
What I'm getting from the feedback, and from my experience, is:
I plan to do split long runs for the next ~2wks then go back to traditional long runs in my final ~5-6wks, which really means about 3x legit traditional long runs.
Regarding form: just like swimming and counting strokes, my best tool is to count left foot strikes. I really focuses me on my form, improves my cadence, etc. I usually count to 100 and then start over. Over time I find myself developing an ability to focus on my running form nearly continuously. Very valuable habit to have late in a long run or in the final miles of a race.
Other tips for running form mental exercies, I think about Head-Up looking forward instead of down at my feet. I also think about relaxing my upper body, shoulders through the arms and even my fingers. I make a conscious effort to do a self evaluation and make corrections mid run. I also think about leaning slightly forward and making sure my feet land under myself.
NOTE: I do all my long runs on sunday after a saturday long bike/brick wko's....
Also something nobody mentioned is the possible benefit split runs may have for the MOP/BOP peeps....
I tend to identify most with what Dino said, that the real effort kicks in during the later miles of a long run.
I like to do 3+ runs of 18-20 miles before an IM or marathon, all in Weeks 3-5 prior to the event. I find that the later miles get easier with each run and you learn how push through something REALLY hard..
No matter how many events you have done, training the body to do it works. I think Paul Hough's comments were interesting on a physiological level as well.
I'm late coming to this thread, but here is my $.02. I agree with Dino. The magic happens in the long run after mile 14; everything up to that point is, well, to get you to that point. Kinda like The Line. I'll do 3 or 4 long runs of 16-18 miles leading up to an IM with the last run 18 miler 17 days before the race. I also have learned that it helps both physically and mentally to do this run as a negative split. So I'll run the first 10 miles at Z1 pace (8:45/mile for me). Then I alternate mile repeats @ Z3 (7:25/mile) with ez running. It looks this. Miles 11, 13, 15, 17 @ 7:25 and miles 12, 14, 16, 18 @ 8:45. Miles 15 & 17 really hurt, but it gets me really ready to race. My body knows it can run an IM marathon @ Z1 pace, but my mind KNOWS that I can accelerate for a mile or so late in the race if the situation calls for it. That mental and physical readiness paid off for me last year at IM Mt Tremblant where I accelerated to a 7:45 pace for mile 20 to pass a guy leading in my AG, and I went on to win my AG. It worked for me then and I'm doing similar runs (due to crazy work schedule, I'll probably only get two 18 milers in this year) for IMMT in 2015.
Split runs are great for several reasons...
1) Your racing self only knows total miles per week (as triathlete) and if you get 40 miles in as 4 or 8 runs, it's still 40 miles....however...
2) We all "get" that 4 x 10 mile runs is harder than 8 x 5 mile runs... However...
3) When it comes to long run volume, we are convinced that running really long (over 2 hours) has a magical power for our performance. (mind convincing body what it feels -- pain and suffering -- is important for race day success).
Having done split miles and long runs, the benefits for me are:
+ better running overall...no "suck miles" at the end. But I am not worried about end of run mental toughness, just damage to body.
+ second run is hard to do. Motivation is low...but running and finding your stride is a big confidence booster.
+ fueling is better...I can recover nutritionally between, etc.
+ Recover from workout is much faster. Long runs hurt. Big time. So not running that long in one session is a big difference.
Strategy: I recommend split long runs through Camp Week (6 weeks out) when you can do long runs for weeks 6/5/4, then you are tapering it down. This way every one of you is happy ^above^.
Also split long runs are:
+ easier to execute during work week (1 hour in AM, 1 hour in PM)
+ safe way to ramp up long run volume....most folks are "behind" entering final 12 week to race.
+ good for folks who are run injury prone (aka 95% of you out there)
The experts say at least 8 hours.
Paul, this is something I'm really struggling with. This is my first year back to long distance racing, and I'm feeling extremely unprepared for my 1/2 in a couple of weeks, and IMCHOO in a couple of months. All of my runs have been Z2 at best, more often Z1, and most often something like Z0.5! As a BOP runner, this is demoralizing -- when I should be building fitness, I feel that it's ebbing away, and I'm slower than I was months ago. I have been spending time on the treadmill, but my outdoor runs seem to be worse the more time I spend running indoors. So ... splitting the runs may be the best thing for those of us trying to get through summer training while also dealing with high heat/humidity. I'm looking forward to seeing the split run schedules next year. ANYTHING has to be better than trying to do a 2-hr run, knowing you should be in Z2/Z3, but being able to do no better than Z1.
Paul and Catherine, I get you both. In Miami the runs are all torture. It's either like swimming in a warm bath, or running in a steam room. Add the injuries and splitting the long run is a must. If I break down and lose form, I aggravate the injuries. It's a balance. It's not for "advanced" runners only. That's just silly. Lots of good information if you google.
I'm quite unprepared for my first Half this Sunday as I've been told by PTs to rest the knee and keep the hamstring strengthened. I'm just going to go one discipline at a time and hope the run isn't too painful too soon.
There IS value in the long run. I wish I had one in me. Hopefully if I will before IM Florida. PT, ART, Rest/Swim&Bike until it's possible.
See Patrick's comments above and possible future changes to the plan. What I've done / where I'm at:
For ^this^ reason, my remaining long runs (yes, I'm counting them
) before IMWI will be traditional-style long runs where I'm 100% dialing in my IM pacing, HR, nutrition, and hydration plans.
BUT, I did several workouts last yr in the meat of my biggest IM weeks that I "think" also helped build the confidence to suffer late in the run and be able to have the confidence to run fast (for me anyways) late in the IM marathon. And that was to do the full Long Run as written in the plan in the morning (i.e. 150 mins) and then in the evening, go out for a short 3-4 mile run making sure your last mile or 2 is at "Goal Race Pace". It's unbelievable how thick your legs feel for the first mile or two and you will hate yourself at the start, but you eventually are just able to run GRP near the end. This gets an extra "frequency" run in and forces you to really concentrate on running with thick legs. And makes your 2-3 "biggest run days" even bigger.
But in an open marathon there are some VERY different things going on than in an ironman race. In an open marathon a serious athlete is racing at a pace FASTER than their long run training pace. For those following classical training, they are also not running materially longer in distance or total time than they do in training – most have done a 20 or 22-miler – whereas for the ironman athlete the marathon is part of a 10-15 hour event for which the longest training workout might have been 6 hours.
One point that hasn't been raised is the age-old concept of limiting the long run's proportion of the athlete's total run time. A huge injury driver among "weekend warriors" training for an open marathon is that the long run ends up being 40 or 50%+ of the run volume (sometimes more!). I think this concept is relevant to triathletes – since triathletes typically train with lower overall run volume there is a risk of the long run making up a very high proportion of the total volume. Using myself as an example, when marathon training I would run 55-60mpw and the long run would be 18-20 of those miles. Never really more than a third of the volume. Now, training for IM, I'm running ~40mpw (if I'm lucky) so an 18-miler is going to bump up on 50% of the run volume. That starts getting risky.
Notwithstanding the above differences, I'm somewhat torn about the concept of splitting the long run for IM training. The big advantage as folks have noted is the ability to build more volume via frequency and reduce the risk of injury. Reading the above posts there seems to be an increased recovery cost to the long run for some, although for me that's not the case. The logistics are cited as an advantage for some but for me it's the opposite – the overhead associated with a workout and getting out the door twice is an issue. So that leaves us with Rich's question…is there "inherent value". Honestly I think there is (beyond the psychological that many have noted). I just don't believe the physiological adaptations associated with 2 runs ~12 hours apart are the same as that of a long run. Now "not the same" doesn't imply "needed" or "beneficial for an ironman performance" but it seems logical to me that training your body to be able to run for a long time would have benefits for an ironman where, well, you'll be running for a long time. I don't have any science behind that but it just seems logical.
1. As mentioned, I can get in a lot more volume at a lot less recovery time. Nothing to add here.
2. More to the discussion, a reason listed by many in favor of the long run is the mental toughness aspect (can deal with the hard miles at the end of the race). One thing that has not received as much play here that I want to bring up is the mental cost of going back out for a run in the afternoon or evening after you have put in a good run in the morning. If I do just my long run, those first few miles are clocking along a relatively slow pace, but if I am doing it split, those miles are at a faster pace giving me more work done early that I need to shake out when I go out for trip number 2. Also, living where I do (muggy midwest), that second run can be a whole different animal as far as conditions go and creates a different set of circumstances I have to mentally work through. This is a biggie for me.
3. A calorie is a calorie, but I just feel better if I can spread the workout(s) through the day. The exercise tamps down some of my hunger to be honest and helps with my body comp goals. If I just bang out the 2.5 hour long run in the morning (which I did yesterday), by dinner time I am ready to eat everything, no matter how well I fueled during and after the run.
I am very much in favor of the hybrid approach and think it would be beneficial for most to try.
thanks for the thoughts.
due to my schedule, I do the long runs on sunday. longest bike on Saturday.
if I do splits runs, I will only have 3-5 hours between then. have the work and life thing that does not allow otherwise. so maybe less benefit?
If you are more than 12 weeks out, then your runs aren't that long (closer to 90') and that can be 1 run....but at the same time I'd have you running close to 10 during the week sometime..say do Wed FTP run followed by time in Z2 for your 10 miler, for example.
When it's crunch time, then weeks 9 to 14 are all split runs on Sunday, as far apart as your schedule allows.
Then Weeks 15, 16, 17 are all your regular long runs, then you start tapering!
More to come on this shortly...
Thanks!
Depends on how you plan on splitting those, as 60'/60', or 1:15/45', etc. I typically went longer in the AM so the PM run was less onerous. The numbers you want to dial in before your race are (1) your go-all day running HR, (2) your long run avg HR and associated pace, and (2) the HR you plan to push yourself up to in the final miles of the run. Of these, #1 and #2 are most important. If it were me, I'd dial in that low Z1 HR for about 15-20', then Z2, with a final push of whatever for the last 10-15'.
IOW, don't overthink the mix too much, though because the runs are split you can generally run them both at a faster pace than you would as a single long run.
With regards to your schedule question, very valuable to keep the long run on Thurs and do 2x long rides on the weekends...as you know. But if you can't do that, yes, I would like you to create another weekday ride. Bottomline is that you need a minimum of 3x rides per week.
I did my long/split run typically on Sunday. It did mean I was doing a longer ride on Thursday morning. As for how to split the run, I typically did a bit more in the morning run when I felt fresher as Rich said. So for a 2hr long run, I would likely go a 1:10/50 or 1:15/45 type of split. As for pacing, I was able to go anywhere from 15 to 30 sec faster than my goal race pace because it was shorter runs. Hope this helps.