Heart Rate Run pacing in IM
I have noticed that a lot of you guys are now figuring IM run pacing based on heart rate. I am interested in trying the same for IM Wisconsin. I have read some race plans and I am trying to figure out how people arrived at the numbers, for instance, Coach P put a hard limit of 150 in his plan. Where does that number come from? I noticed Dave Tallo also has heart rate numbers in his plan.
Here is where I am at:
First IM I averaged 145bpm on the bike, and I averaged 150bpm on the run (through mile 16 because data is cut off). In that IM I left some run on the table. In a stand alone marathon I did, I averaged 172bpm and felt like death at the end. I am guessing that there is a happy medium between those two values that I should target? The highest heart rate I have ever seen is 191, so I am guessing my max is probably at most a few beats higher than that.
Is this reasonable?
Start run at average heart rate from bike, keep it in check for the first 6 miles. Miles 6 - 18 expect to see low-mid 150s, and set a hard limit of 160. Miles 18+ run by feel and see what happens?
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But again, I agree with your formula of 'Start run at average heart rate from bike, keep it in check for the first 6 miles. Miles 6 - 18 expect to see low-mid 150s, and set a hard limit of 160. Miles 18+ run by feel and see what happens?' I'd just add: 'miles 1 - 6 should feel ludicrously easy.'
My notes:
What Tallo has done is the gold standard. But he had to do many "hot" work-outs to know where to put that stop. Following the first easy 6 miles (which makes sense for many reasons, though I wonder if the FOP athletes actually need the whole 6 miles...or that 6 miles are enough for the BOPers), my intention is to start with aggressive HRs and work backward rather than to start conservative and move upward.
DS
Peter - here is my advice for you, specifically, at this point in your IM career and your IM training cycle. In your long runs, and any others when you are doing both LRP and MP paces, start paying very close attention to your HR and your RPE when starting out the runs at your LRP (first 4 miles of a long run, or so, e.g.), and during those times when you are going @ MP. Make it a point of emphasis to lock in the correlation between RPE and HR at both your LRP and your MP. With about 3-4 weeks to go (early-mid August?) those HRs you are seeing should be your window for race day.You should probably be spending the last 60-90 minutes of the bike at that LRP HR, and the first 45-60 minutes of the run at that same HR. Then, you can allow your HR to start to drift up towards that max you noticed during MPs while doing long runs. You should hit that number for only the last 30-40 minutes or so of the marathon. In "Zone-speak", this would be starting out the run in mid/high Z1, getting into Z2 somewhere in the early teens (10-13 miles), and not getting to mid Z2 until the magic mile 18. And not going above high Z2 until the finishing chute.
Advanced class, according to Coach P, would have you starting out at a higher HR (like low-mid Z2), and holding that at all costs thru the entire run. I'd suggest that as your next step after trying out this incremental approach first. Just remember, you never find out where your limits are until you go past them.
A well-trained, experienced triathlete *should* be able to run the last 22 miles of the marathon @ 78-82% of his max HR, IMO. So I pretty much agree with the numbers you list at the end of your post, but be careful when you get over 153 or so - you may not be able to hold that 160 for more than a mile or two, but you might be able to go @, say, 155 for 6.2 mi. There's an inflection point there somewhere, and you'll only find it by going past it. A long run of 2.5 hours, with for MP the second hour, and working towards HMP for the last 30', might be a way of finding it. Better than waiting until race day.
my 2¢
With all of that said, your proposal seems like a good starting point in my opinion. I am 44 and have a max HR of about 176. The right bike hr for me is in the upper 130's for an IM and a run is in the upper 140's.
I watch HR and Avg HR on the bike. Because getting out of T1 my HR is always jacked up so I work to lower that Avg HR down to my target then work to hold it there.
On the run, 150 is my cap till it is time to have a cap. But in the first 3 or 4 mi I also have a pace cap. Because I find it very very hard to not go out too fast. For the bulk of the run I use the same screen on my watch: Hr and Avg HR. Keeps me in my box and not projecting my finishing time every 30 sec which I have a propensity to do.
I am much slower than you are but there is my 2c.
I am just curious, why don't we all test and measure our max HR and tout it like we do our other measures? 220-age seems like a fantastic idea, but too simple to be true. We test our FTP. We test our 5K speed. These measurements promote chasing power/pace on the big day... yet the race conditions can be so variable. All seem to agree the HR is the final arbiter however. . I am curious which would provide a better raceday guide? (not that I have any idea how one would conclude their max HR)
Nowhere in EN do we do anything with MaxHR. I have no idea what mine is and not sure why people are bringing max HR into this discussion.
From your 5k tests we have you get your average HR, which is about your Lactate Threshold HR and we calculate your run HR training zones from that HR, NOT max HR.
220 minus age is worthless.
Since I was the one who first threw out a reference to Max HR, I'll retract it this way. I said, "A well-trained, experienced triathlete *should* be able to run the last 22 miles of the marathon @ 78-82% of his max HR, IMO.". I'll revise that to "A well-trained, experienced triathlete *should* be able to run the last 22 miles of the marathon @ 86-92% of his threshold HR, IMO ". I want to underscore that this is a personal opinion, based on observation, not any actual study. YMMV
Here's a link to a max HR calculator which uses resting heart rate and age as the inout variables. It currently shows me @ (sob) 154. The highest HR I've seen in the past year is, like, 151. FWIW
Anyway, after the fact I was able to gather my HR data from the last 40min and it ended up being 148bpm. Interestingly to me, there was no HR drift over this last 40min (Pa:Hr of 0.10). Seems that it was my "happy place" on that day.
My "worst" runs seem to have one thing in common: Avg HR too high on the bike. I have found that I need to work backwards by 10-15bpm from the HR that I want to run at to get to the HR I want to bike at.
Last year at IMTX (My worst 26.2 IM or otherwise) I buned myself out chasing my target power numbers from my RR. I ended up riding an IF of .69 and a VI of 1.03. Both seemed reasonable to me at the time BUT my avg HR for the ride ended up being 147 (I wasnt watching hr then. This race is why I watch it now). Coming off of the bike at 148bpm+, I had no where to go on the run and cracked early.
My mission now is to look for ways to run faster at 148bpm and to ride faster at 136bpm. I still plan to start my IMFL run at LRP+30 but after mile 6 I might just get my hr to 148 and stick there till it dosent matter anymore.
I have done a bunch of data analysis and I think my numbers I initially threw out seem pretty good, and maybe I can go a just a hair higher. My LRP+30s keeps me in the low 140s, which is about inline with what I expect to see off the bike. My LRP Heart Rate averages to 147bpm at the 6 mile mark, but will have already gone a bit over 150. My threshold heart rate is 180bpm, so going by Al's guidance and taking 90% of that gives me 162, which seems right in line with my upper limit I gave for myself. I will continue to collect data to further refine my plan. I plan to do a soul crushing long run of 8 miles at LRP, 8 miles at MP, and try for 4 at HMP. I will also do a race rehearsal run of 18 miles of 6 at LRP+30s and then 12 at LRP. I think those will be critical data points to hone in on this.
1. Looks like HR averages on the run are based off of bike data. I'm using my long run day to practice, which doesn't have a bike ride in front of it, so do I use a HR that maintains an even pace throughout or is there a better method to determine desired HR?
2. My long runs are on a fairly hilly course. I ran 13 miles (2 x 6.5 mile loop) with about 1,000 feet of elevation gain so it's really hard to maintain an even HR. When I looked at the data after the run it looked fairly good. I believe the drop off was due to dehydration. Loop 1 pace/ngp/HR 8:19/8:10/120 and loop 2 8:29/8:16/123. With hilly courses, how do you monitor in real time?
3. How are you setting up your watches? I have Garmin with average lap pace and current heart rate and a few other metrics on another screen like time, distance, cadence. Should average be first half / second half or smaller chunks like every mile?
4. As you monitor in real time and notice significant changes in either HR or pace was is the corrective action? Slow down, drink more, grab ice? Do you do something different if you think you are over heating versus dehydrating?
@ Tom : There's racing, and there's training. My goal in training is to "get to know your HR". I've also got nothing but hills to run on, e.g., most recent long run 12.5 mi/982'. So in practice what I do is continually observe my pace (via last lap pace, and current lap pace), RPE, and HR. Since I've got years doing the same runs on the same routes, I pretty much know how my HR is currently shaping up with my pace and RPE. In the last 2 months before an IM, I am locking in to my head what all these correlations are - what does it feel like when my HR is, say 116-118 (my current LRP HR), and what does it feel like at, say 131-34 (My current MP HR), and how fast am I going (as measured by last lap pace) when I *think* I am running @ LRP or MP.
Then in the race/IM, I triangulate things at the start by RPE, pace (as adjusted mentally for terrain and temperature), and HR, compared to what I was doing the last hour on the bike and my own recent history of HR @ LRP. As a general rule, RPE trumps all the others. But I can get away with that, because after about 7 or 8 IMs, I finally figured out how SLOW I needed to go for the first 60-80 minutes of an IM marathon, and what that needed to feel like. I then refined that over the past ten years in races in all sorts of conditions - hot, cold, hilly, flat. Someone without that background might need more of a reining in by HR, meaning the avg HR in the last 60-90 minutes on the bike.
What do I look at on my watch? First off, I have the Garmin HR strap which gives me cadence, and I think trying to run the IM @ 89-90 rpm (178-180 as the watch reports it) is extremely important. So I have cadence on each screen. Also, I think HR is important, so it appears on each screen. My first page shows total distance and total moving time, in addition to HR & CAD. I use this as my primary training run screen. My second page, which I use as my primary screen during races and when doing intervals, shows current lap time and current lap pace, with HR&CAD. I also have auto lap set to one mile, so I get feedback on my "current" pace that way. I do have a third screen, which I (almost) never use, showing Time of Day, Current Pace, HR, and elevation. I'm not saying this set-up is right for others, but it's what I've evolved to over the past 2-3 years. In particular, I do not want to know my current race time, I'd rather stay more in the moment, as defined by "what did I run the last mile at, and what is my current lap pace?"
One last thing, an acknowledgement that I, like many others, use a training VDOT and a racing VDOT which are 2-3 points apart. My racing VDOT is based on my most recent half marathon time, which is now 1:40.1X. My training VDOT is based on what I find I can do, week-in, week-out, for TP intervals, which is currently about 7:03. For instance, currently, my racing VDOT is 45, for an LRP of 9:17. But I can easily train day in day out @ an LRP of 8:47 and TP of 7:03, which is more like a 47/8 VDOT. I have learned over the years some humility, and use that lower/slower VDOT/LRP on race day.
Overall Goal of EN Run HR strategy:
+ avoid run blow up by over-exerting (a result of over pacing, control HR and you control your pace).
+ account for all variables -- weather, nutrition, bike pacing, terrain with one number vs math (math don't work on race day).
+ assure self of ability to continue fueling / hydrating early run miles (you'll need it by the second half when you don't eat).
Basic steps are:
1) know your long bike AHR, and what it looks like in the last hour to 90 minutes. Mine is 138, but that's 130 early, 142-3 later. Filed away.
2) know your long run "happy" AHR, where you are good all day. This is 140-144 for me.
3) On race day, have those numbers in your head, specifically out of T1 you should know your "ideal long ride early start HR" and try to get down there ASAP with easy spinning, deep breathing, etc. Get it as low as you can as soon as you can, then you can start building it up all day with steady riding.
3) Have a bike HR CAP where you say, no matter what my watts are, I should never see above 145 (in my case)...again, filed away.
4) Note AHR for final 60-90 minutes on bike on race day...how does this align with my usual bike HR performance / compare to my target run performance, etc?
NOTE -- Since my AHR is 138, but that's 130s plus 140s, I expect to see some low 140s at the end of the bike (fatigue, heat accumulation, etc). So by end of bike my last hour AHR or number I consistently see is pretty close to my target run HR.
5) come off bike running at that same final HR number, assuming it lines up with what I know and have experienced in training. Once I get through my early miles without blowing my HR up (fueling well and staying cool), I can start to run steady and see that number come up.
Hope that helps!