Run pacing input needed

MattAaronson

I completed two significant brick runs recently and am looking for feedback on their implications for IM run pacing.

For reference:
- My HMP is ~6:30/mi and for an open half marathon I'll sustain an HR of about 180 bpm for the whole 85-minute race
- My MP is ~6:45/mi and for an open marathon I'll sustain an HR of about 170 bpm for the whole 85-minute race
- In training runs in the heat of the day I will sustain an HR of ~175-180+ for an hour-long run. When doing intervals 186-188 is not uncommon.

The first run was Thursday...a 6-mile "race rehearsal" brick after an intentionally overcooked 105-mile bike on the IMWI course (more on the bike in another thread). Rather than pace the run per the race rehearsal protocol, I just went out at my normal run pace for a brick run. The stats:
- 6.0 miles in 40:46, 6:48/mi (6:55 first half, 6:44 second half)
- avg cadence 184
- HR avg 169, max 185 with most of the run in the mid 170's. HR escalated steadily over the course of the run.
- Note it was mid-day heat in the high 80's and no shade
- Overall it felt like a normal brick run. For that HR in those conditions I'd have expected something closer to HMP at 6:30 pace but hey, I just biked over a hundred miles at IF 0.84.
- No way I could run an IM marathon at that pace obviously
- http://connect.garmin.com/activity/850568233

On Friday at the IMWI camp we all did another 105 miles on the bike with no run. Then on Saturday I biked the course again, this time 80 miles, and followed it with a brick. By now in the weekend my legs should have been nice and cooked so I wanted to see if I could find a sustainable IM pace. I set my Garmin screens to show only cadence and HR. I targeted 180 cadence and capped my HR in the mid-140s, about 7-10 bpm higher than my HR on the bike when outputting "5-hour power". The result:
- 4.0 miles in 30:07, 7:30/mi
- Rock solid mile splits after the first mile: 7:47, 7:24, 7:26, 7:25
- avg cadence 179
- HR avg 141, max 154 with variation driven solely by hills...no drift
- A bit cooler temps
- Felt like I could run all freakin' day. Seriously. It felt like walking.
- http://connect.garmin.com/activity/851500098

Overall I look at that data and the really striking thing is that the massive difference in HR and RPE only cost ~35 sec/mi on my pace. This really surprised me. I figured based on the RPE alone that I was running slower than 8:00/mi for sure. So that is really encouraging.

The other lesson learned is the value of HR as a tool for pacing. An HR cap is a powerful thing.

The question in my mind is what HR I should target for race day. I feel like my experiment yesterday is now the low end. Can I go higher and how can I test the viability of that? Should I do a longer, i.e. 1-hour, brick for my second RR? I feel like it is here where my lack of IM experience really leaves me with uncertainty.

All of your input appreciated!

JeremyBehler

Matt - I don't think you want to limit your HR from just your bricks as the benchmark. I believe the key benefit of bricks is learning/feeling what it feels like to run after a long ride.

Ultimately you should look at your HR from bricks AND long runs and triangulate based on the data. You know you cooked the first brick and you probably went too easy on the second. Ultimately you need to figure out the number in between those that will get you to the line ready to race. As I look at our run this morning you averaged 150, still on very fatigued legs with 300 bike miles in the three days prior. Note this is nearly 20bpm below your Thursday brick with strong, consistent pacing of 7:21 which would lead to a 3:15-3:20 IM marathon.

What does your HR look like on your other long training runs?

Caltri

Lurking. But I have to ask: What is your run max HR? A half marathon at 180 is impressive. Nor to mention 170 for a full.

Al Truscott

The sad truth is ...you can't ever replicate in training what the last 10 miles of the IM marathon will be like, in terms of "trying something out and seeing if it works." Even if you're the Iron Cowboy.

So finding the "right" pace/HR/RPE for the first 16 miles is what your training task is. I've written about that many times in many threads, won't repeat detail here unless you want me to. But for summary, see my posts in Coach P's thread from Monday the 27th on defining IM marathon pacing by HR.

Al Truscott

OK...Julie asked how do we figure out this HR based run pacing in training? Here's what I said:

What we do in training to prepare to use this method on race day? Remember, this is my opinion, not necessarily EN gospel...I think the role of training, along with getting fitter, is to help you lock in to your running consciousness what your HR and RPE are at various paces, specifically LRP and MP. During the race, the idea is to slowly work the RPE and HR from slightly BELOW what we notice when in LRP, thru LRP, to MP during the last 1.5 hours. Of course, your actual pace on race day will NOT be the same as during training sessions, but the RPE and the HR should be and feel the same as what you feel during training as you progress from LRP >MP.

MattAaronson

Thanks for the input

@ Al, yes, I get it. It's interesting...I ran this morning with Jeremy after doing the original post. That's the run Jeremy is referring to. In that run my HR corresponded to the exact pace I would have expected (we ran around 7:20/mi for ~12.5 miles, negative split, HR was around 150). But the RPE was totally out of whack due to the fatigue of 3 days of hard long riding and 2 brick runs. It is apparent to me that in the IM realm there are factors that impact RPE that I haven't experienced before so I need to keep doing this to recalibrate my RPE/HR/pace equation.

@ Jeremy - regarding "What does your HR look like on your other long training runs?". I think that's irrelevant since I do all my long runs at MP or faster, so HR is 170+ all the time. Clearly for the IM the number has to be lower. Or, like Coach P's post to my micro thread, I can slow down the long runs in training........

@ Bob - the highest I ever hit was 193 doing intervals on a treadmill in a warm hotel gym in Seoul while severely jetlagged. So I call that my max. Typically doing z4 intervals for up to 1-2 miles in the summer I'll hit 187-188.

MattAaronson

A bit discouraged today. Did a 30-min brick by HR without looking at pace following a 5 hour ride which was ~15 watts above IM target. Capped HR at 150 and felt like I could run all day. But on uploading noted the average pace was 7:40/mi which is slower than I expected. Bummer. But based on my brick experience I'm resigned to running with an HR cap and letting pace be the outcome...the chance I go out too hard otherwise is just too high.

Peter Noyes

Here are some data points for you. Running wise, we are very similar. My max HR is about the same, and I averaged 172bpm in the open marathon I did. My zones are about the same as yours as well. Last year at IMCDA I averaged 8:06 on the run. I felt like I undercooked that run a bit. I only have data for the first 16 miles, but I averaged 150bmp over that first part. For the first 16 miles I averaged 8:13 per mile, and the last 10 I averaged 7:52. At the time my Garmin cut out I was doing 152-153bpm. It was a cool day, but IMCDA has more elevation than Wisconsin.

I am still figuring out my exact plan, but I definitely want to push the envelope this time around. I am figuring that I will have averaged about 150 on the last hour of the bike, so I will start there on the run. I am then thinking of capping my HR at 160 for through mile 18 and then see what happens. I have done some experimenting with HR and trying to correlate a pace to it, and my best swag for myself is that in ideal conditions I might have a shot at 7:30 miles. If it is hot, it will slow down for sure.

MattAaronson

Peter, this is really, really helpful. That correlation sounds in the ballpark but maybe a bit low...at 150bpm I would expect to see 7:30ish but yesterday was getting 7:40. The idea of capping at 160 is something I need to experiment with. In the past when I've gone on long runs with groups @7:30 my HR was south of 160. But unlike you who has the experience of an undercooked run, I have the mortal fear of blowing up in my first IM. I'd rather cap at 150 and if I'm able to raise it to 160 in the second half to do that. Also the fact is that any pace starting with a "7" is faster than a 3:30 marathon which in my mind would be damn respectable.



I think a 3:20 is probably the faster end of what I my be my capability and would require faster than 7:40/mi. Such a pace is only is only in the cards if it's the output of running at 150-155 bpm. Because even if I allow HR to come up in the second half (and if my muscles allow that...) it's really hard to claw back time in the second half of a race.



At the end of the day my brick runs have taught me that I am FOR SURE going to run too hard if I go by feel, and I have a cramping history in my quads to really scare me about going too hard. So I'm committed to a hard cap on HR and really restraining myself. For better or for worse pace will be the output. My Garmin screens won't show pace or total time for the first loop at a minimum. Just cadence and HR.

JeremyBehler

Matt - another thing to think about here. You are coming from a place where your run benchmarks are incredibly high (eg 2:5x marathons, crazy fast half marys. etc). Don't let that bias you.

As you mention...that 7:40 pace that you ran at a 'go all day pace' based purely on heart rate would equate to a 3:21 IM marathon which would put you in the top five of the AG in almost any year.