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Do calf sleeves make me less aero?

Taper is kicking in which means the mind is racing.  



I've always worn calf sleeves in my IMs, but rarely during training or 70.3s.    

As I'm prepping for IMMOO and looking to get as aero and slippery as possible...do calf sleeves provide an aero penalty vs. nice smooth, shaved legs?  

Comments

  • I am not sure, but I imagine it has got to because of the ridges where they end and meet your legs. I had the same question about arm coolers.
  • If you've got so much free time, why don't you do the Google search yourself? One example...virtually no added drag in wind tunnel wearing SKINS.

    http://www.danielcassidyracing.com/blog/ccns-wind-tunnel

    I did this to kill time somewhere between Grand Junction and Green River

  • Al - I should have prefaced that I did a google search and came away with a lot of contradictory messages. I saw what you linked from which obviously came from a potentially biased POV given he is sponsored.
  • I have no idea. But I think the equation has two parts. Isn't the right question: "does whatever aero penalty get outweighed by the benefit they provide?" In other words, they may or may not make you less aero. But I assume you're considering wearing them because they provide some sort of physiological benefit to your muscles. If that benefit gives you one second per mile on the run, or decreases your chance of a devastating muscle cramp by 0.025% or whatever, then it is probably worth the tradeoff.

    Btw I suspect they will be less aero if only because they add a few mm of thickness to your calves.

    FWIW I'm not a huge believer in the benefits of racing with calf sleeves or other compression gear. I figure if that gear was so performance-enhancing then you'd see the top runners and ultramarathoners using it. But instead I only ever see well-heeled triathletes buying the stuff. Who knows...
  • Yes Matt...that's exactly what I was getting at. I tend to not buy into it all but since I have used them for two IMs and ran well that's my 'base'. That said I have recognized that I'm a stronger runner now more than ever and haven't used sleeves all year. That coupled with the fact you mention that elite runners (but a lot of pro triathletes do) don't use them I question the benefit.

    So if there is an aero penalty then it may be worth it but if there isn't then essentially there is nothing to lose.
  • I remember seeing one set of windtunnel tests from an athlete on ST where he found absurdly large drag savings from them. It was something huge like 30 watts. Naturally, that was met with due incredulity, and I've never seen anyone aside from that poster finding such gains. If you're REALLY tapering and want to kill time, do a search on that forum ... it's bound to give you a lot of information to sift through (and I'd love to see that test again)!

    Of course, there are also possible downfalls to leg sleeves and compression socks. Now, I'll acknowledge that those that like them, like them a lot, but some athletes and exercise physiologists have eschewed them, suggesting that the compression may not enable the skin to cool the body as effectively as bare skin because of the constriction of the skin surface.

    One last option (hey ... you asked!) is to apply something on the legs akin to a fabric 'stripe' running along where the outside seam on a pair of trousers would lie. Neal Henderson (I think NealH on ST; he's the guy behind view-speed) advanced this on Analytic Cycling a long time ago, suggesting that this would trip the boundary layer of wind as it hits the leg (which is at least consistent with the "skin is slow" mantra that's popular at the moment). I had some conversations around this topic with an "aerodynamicist" in real life, and it actually has traction ... there is at least one person who is testing and developing a "texture spray" that an athlete would apply to the outside of his or her legs, and the bumps/divots/texture that the spray would ldave when dried on the skin would serve the boundary layer trip that I mention above.

    In my diy world, I've also wanted to Chung/alphamantis test just applying a simple strip of kinesis tape from knee to ankle along the outside of mt calf to see if it achieved any savings ... it seems like this would be legal to use during the swim in non-wetsuit races, would be based on a products that's readily available, and would not constrict the leg or cover the skin (too much). Oh - and it would be cheap. I haven't got around to testing, but now that I'm thinking about it, maybe I'll keep my bike kitted up this weekend and try a few runs.

  • What's the latest thinking of the aero-ness of cooling sleeves? I have the DeSoto sleeves, like armwarmers but a cooling mesh. I wore them a lot this summer and the cool effect is awesome when you can keep wetting them with a water bottle, like you can on a race. Regardless of the temps (unless it's downright cold) I plan to be dumping water on myself constantly. I just perform better when I keep myself as cool as possible, especially on the bike.

    Anyway, just wondering if there's a tradeoff between cooling benefit and aero drag, if there is any.
  • I've not heard anything either way on cooling sleeves, but I would imagine they are neutral, if only because the forearm is horizontal (while in aero position), unlike a big ol vertical cylinder hitting the wind like the upper arm.

    All this assumes that they are reasonably tight and not flapping around unnecessarily.

    Heck, they're probably still better than skin. I would suspect that the DeSoto Bolero - one-piece arm coolers that also cover the lower arms, upper arms, shoulders, upper back and neck, are an aero improvement on bare skin in a tri singlet. If the bolero is tight, that is.

    There's probably some point where the texture of the fabric starts to matter - for example, the LG and Octane have unique texture on the upper arms, shoulders and upper back, and treat these as the key areas for aero gains by the garment. The Castelli t1 takes the same "strategically placed textured fabric" approach, but I compared the aero-fabric in that garment to a Craft sleeveless superlight base cooling layer I have from 10 years ago, and the two are literally exactly the same. So I think texture vs smooth generally matters, but after that distinction, it just gets into proprietary approaches that would achieve minor differences.
  • These aren't smooth, kinda a very tight weeve meshy-ish material.

  • Pearl Izumi sun sleeves available at REI <1mi from my house. Jeremy, you've used these. What say you?
  • Yes. Used them for all my races. They aren't meshy or compressiony. They are relatively smooth and I would imagine good from and aero POV but as stated above the arm position doesn't expose them to the wind nearly as much. I'll be wearing them again at IMMOO
  • Jeremy, check out pictures of Wiggins doing his hour record.  If bare skin were faster than fabric, I'm sure he would know and not have the high/tall socks on.  That's enough justification for me to keep wearing the calf sleeves on long efforts where they might help my Achilles feel just a tiny bit better.

    Dave - someone is selling the fabric strips you mention.  I've never seen them in person but here they are http://www.aero-coach.co.uk/store/p...em-12-pack

     


  • Posted By Kane Murphy on 04 Sep 2015 08:27 AM

     

    Dave - someone is selling the fabric strips you mention.  I've never seen them in person but here they are http://www.aero-coach.co.uk/store/p...em-12-pack

     

    Thanks a lot, Kane.   The claim of 5w savings based on Alphamantis tests is something I can't ignore!   I'm curious about how well they will hold up in a swim.    

  • Another piece of gear after Kane has sent me into the dark web ... aero calf guards with a built-in trip strip.

    http://www.nopinz.com/product/nopinz-trip-sockz/

    Thread closed. Tallo drops the mic.

  • Posted By Dave Tallo on 04 Sep 2015 08:59 AM


    Another piece of gear after Kane has sent me into the dark web ... aero calf guards with a built-in trip strip.



    http://www.nopinz.com/product/nopinz-trip-sockz/



    Thread closed. Tallo drops the mic.

    Wow, I just may get these, if they can be shipped to my Madison hotel in time...

  • Would you run in those? If not, $5 says the 10 seconds you spend removing them in T2 negates most if not all of the time savings.......

    The socks worn by the hour record guys are interesting. I'm at O'Hare waiting for a flight so looked at images of the more recent (i.e. post-2014, Voigt and onward) attempts. The guys all wear socks although none are really calf sleeves. Wiggins' socks are the longest for sure. I do wonder how they figured out the aerodynamics of what socks to wear, particularly given the variation.

    (and as we all know, assertions of wattage savings must be taken with massive skepticism...if I added the claimed wattage savings of all of my aero gear on race day vs. a training ride it would probably be something like 40 watts or another ridiculous number)
  • The thread I'm reading in another browser window is 24 pages of UK timetrialers going gaga over the customer service of the company, so you might be in luck! 

  • Ha, nice find on the socks. The CEP compression sleeves actually have a seam down the side that kinda sorta looks like the trip strip thing. No idea if it was on purpose or on accident, but it looks close enough for me. At least Jeremy can feel better wearing his sleeves and not worrying about them slowing him down - they may make him faster.
  • 7" per 10mi = 77" for IM = 67" if it takes me 10" to take them off. I bet I can practice in my hotel all week to get that down to 5"


    :-)

  • Posted By Matt Aaronson on 04 Sep 2015 09:14 AM




    (and as we all know, assertions of wattage savings must be taken with massive skepticism...if I added the claimed wattage savings of all of my aero gear on race day vs. a training ride it would probably be something like 40 watts or another ridiculous number)

    Matt, please indulge my theoretical savings: based on my aero research this morning, I have already won Kona 2016 outright, based on a projected 2:41 bike split.   

    Save your dream crushing for the course next weekend!   

  • Gah. Stop finding this kind of stuff. I can't keep ordering crap!
  • Weird ... that's not what the other guys in your AG said ...
  • image You guys need to stop obsessing and go watch a good movie, like the Mad Max remake or Unbroken. Or binge watch the last season of Breaking Bad. Take the family to a crowded beach. Go shopping with the SO for SAUs. Something.
  • When not obsessing about the race I just keep reading this thing over and over:

    http://www.ellasdeli.com/pdfs/DessertMenu.pdf

    I think I am going with a pound cake hot fudge sunday. Big question is caramel, or traditional.
  • So glad I'm not on that pointy end and not worried about this stuff at all.
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