Fast AND a Low HR: How?
How do you do it? Or, how did you get it?
I consider myself a pretty fit 44 y.o. Pretty good body comp, weight and body fat %. I'm eating better and have lost the weight. Not tour cyclist light but I do hit 3.9 - 4+ w/kg during the peak of the season the last 2 years. My sleep could be better but can't change work's impact on this. Usually get 6-7 hrs/night. I consider myself a guy who does most of our workouts as hard as prescribed.
So, I've noticed that so many of you guys and gals can race at strong speeds and paces and still do this with relatively low HR's. This is the next code I want to crack. I'm the exact opposite. My HR tends to jump up to just below Threshold HR real quick and then can sit there for many hours, five in the case of my most recent HIM. However, at some point late in a race or long workout, as expected, it comes to a point of bust. I have to think that I can finish better, IM or HIM, if I can learn to race, holding speed and pace, with that lower HR.
My goal for this fall & winter is to work on this. Pre Jan OS stuff...at the very least.
tell me why you think you are fast AND can keep your HR down in the 120s, 130s, low 140s. I want to see what I'm doing wrong. I can't do anything about genetics. However, I should be doing a better job utilizing a low HR in endurance sports than I do.
Hit me.
Comments
But, what I'm interested in tinkering with is this idea of staying away from that zn4 HR altogether, as opposed to hanging on to it as long as I can tolerate.
I have a low resting HR, also. Very reactive. Jumps up to do the work, hold it a long time, and when I drop into recovery minutes, the HR comes down very quickly. All good things as far as I've been taught.
Hi Chris, I think I fall into the category that you mention (not sure about fast). I'm 61, just did Kona last week with 5:57 bike and 3:49 run. My HR was 112 on the bike and 121 on the run average. I don't think it matters what the number is. I've heard of some elites that have a range of 38 resting and 180 racing and everything in between. It will come down a little with fitness but mine stays about the same. It may be more of a pacing issue. Just a little too high early on is a sure way to have a rough finish. The key for me not slowing down was really dialing in Coach P's "racing with heart rate" plan on my training rides and runs, especially race rehearsals. Figure out your number and stay right on it! You are obviously a fit guy so I suspect it may be just a pacing tweak. Good luck!
So what you're talking about with a lower HR is actually a larger heart, more cardiac muscle and compliance (elasticity), which is probably best done between ages 15-25. Sort of like the difference between learning how to swim as a kid vs an adult. I bet those of us who can race at a lower HR have a history of a lot of running or swimming intervals in that key muscle building window.
What I've noticed about myself is my HR responds, meaning gets lower at the same speed, quickly to Z4 sport specific intervals, along with standard Z1&2 work. My resting HR is 39, and I run a 21 min 5K @ about 151.
Also, how does your HR responds when you go from high intensity to high intensity in the same workout ? If it drops quickly, I guess that a good indication of how your body recovers.
Steve Kester. Local Tri Beast. Multi KQ's. He pulls onto my road about 50m ahead of me and a buddy who are just riding steady. We decide to reel him in (I was pulling) not knowing whose wheel we were about to get trashed by. A casual Hi was traded, nothing bitter, but it was clear he wanted us to get dropped. I'm stubborn. I recognized who he was and I decided to see how long I could hold his wheel while he was in Drop 'em Mode. It 'bout killed me. ~17' of zn6. Proud to say that I didn't pop. Made it to the point where he was finished with his interval and he backed off. Cool. But, knowing he was on Strava, I had to compare.....
Yes, those segments were flyin'. Usually, going hard on these segments yields 22+ mph. We were moving at 25-26 mph. I didn't have a chance to pull b/c he wasn't sliding over and I couldn't offer a pull as I was redlining.
Here's where I'm frustrated. I was also able to compare HRs.
Me, drafting perfectly, road bike (S2)......167-180+.
Him, pulling tri style (Illicito), and 3 weeks post Kona....140 max during those same segments.
Same speed. Very similar kgs. Both on good rigs. Yet, HR diff is zn6 for me and zn2 for him.
Frustrating. But, I love challenges. This is something I want to pursue. I might not be able to close that gap very much but if I can learn how to lower my HR, I have to think that my long course results will do nothing but improve. It has to be a HUGE advantage, especially in long course racing.
Thanks for letting me vent.
@Chris - some people are just freaks of nature and that makes a tough compare to us mere mortals! One question about the tri guy and you, what are the age differences. If you are both relatively close in age, i agree that is a huge disparity.
I'll share my personal opinion on this whole HR topic, and i want to preface this with the fact that i have absolutely no science or research behind my theory, just my own n=1. I'm 46 and i can run 7 min miles with my HR around 130-135. If i drop my pace to around 7:30 i can hover for a very long time around 122-128. When i look at my background, as i teenager i played football and ran a lot even in the off season to keep fit. I don't know exactly how much i ran, but i'd say for sure more than the average teen from age 12-17 back in the mid 80's. I was lazy in my 20's, but when i turned 30 i started seriously running. I wasn't training for anything, but i'd say from age 30-41 i averaged 40+ miles per week running almost every day. I was kinda like Forest Gump before Forest Gump. At age 41 i discovered triathlon and at that point my run had a purpose. Now back to HR...My theory is that over time your body naturally finds efficiencies, not in weeks or months, but over years and as your body finds these efficiencies, running gets easier. At the same time you are building a solid aerobic base, also making running feel easier. All of this combine to reduce effort and therefore reduce the work required by the heart in terms of number beats per minute. I do think this aligns with the direction of the run durability plans. Up the frequency and you will build durability, but increased frequency will also help move the body towards becoming more efficient. It's kind of the same principle with swimming in that just 30 minutes a day helps you maintain your feel for the water. Maybe this obvious to folks, but as someone with a low HR while running this has always been my theory as to why.
My VDOT from last week was 38 based on a 25:12 5k time and my average HR was 171 with a max HR of 186
My VDOT from a year ago was 35.8 based on 26:29 5k time and my avg HR was 173 with a max HR of 187
My VDOT from 2013 Thanksgiving was 32.3 based on a 28:50 5k and my avg HR was 176 with a max of 187
That's unfortunately as far back as I have (accurate) records. bottom line, I seem to have room to gain efficiency but my HR is always maxed out (literally). Even when I run in Z1 (around 10:30) my HR holds between 135-145 range. I'm recognizing that as I age building durability and efficiency seems to be the only way to get gains--no matter how fit I get my HR jumps very high early in my run (or bike) and steadily rises. (maybe because I wasn't doing heart-pounding athletics as a young man to enlarge that muscle???)
With regard to the bike I get similar results to my run now but when I first started on the bike (only a few years back when I took an interest in triathlon) I had a hard time getting my HR to rise above ~145-150 (don't know why). Now that I've been riding regularly for a few years, hard riding results in similar HR results to running but still below completely maxing out.
Very interested in this thread myself... If there is some super duper way to train to lower my HR while getting similar results I'd be all over it.
Best,
Dave
I know I can't compare me to ...anyone. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. For the last few years, I've been progressing thanks to consistent hard work and great advice from the coaches and teammates. I've learned that I can go harder and longer than I ever thought I could. I've learned that the Hurt won't kill me and I can recover after the interval, after the hill, after the pull, after the race, etc. Obviously, pleased that my race results have been better, also.
But, as I look (errr.....compare), it looks more like I'm learning to raise my HR higher than I would've in my self coached days pre EN and then just hold it AS LONG AS I CAN! So, after a return to the occasional short course stuff after a few IM years, this is a manageable race scenario with decent results. When I get back into the long course build (prob 2017, tho I did get a pass for '16, opting to wait another year), I want the same (or better) speed* but with a sustainable HR for long course.
I guess this implies that I'm just going too hard. RPE of 9+, instead of 6.8-7.0 for long course. But, it doesn't feel that way until the bottom falls out. I have confidence that my tests are accurate. And, when I swag my outdoor FTP based on my indoor FTP, I'm overly conservative and err on the low side.
*genetics says I'll never be as fast as I'd like. But, that doesn't stop me from trying to piece every little piece of the puzzle together. If there is something that I can change that will yield improved results, I don't want to ignore it.
Half-ironman runs:
- Racine 2012 – avg 168 (walked the aid stations, split was 1:35)
- Kansas 2012 – avg 168 (unreal hot, split was 1:38)
- Grand Rapids 2014 – Avg 167 (was above the average the last hour, split was 1:29)
- Racine 2014 – Avg 171 (last 40 mins was all above the average, split was 1:29)
- Steelhead 2014 – Avg 167 (included some walking and stopped time due to quad cramp, split was 1:33)
Half-ironman bikes:
- Racine 2012 – avg 152 (from 43:00 to 2:10 HR was below the average, split was 2:24)
- Kansas 2012 – avg 142 (unreal hot, split was 2:32)
- Grand Rapids 2014 – Avg 144 (very cool conditions, from 50:00 onward HR was below the average, split was 2:20)
- Racine 2014 – Avg 146 (from 22:00 to 1:28 HR was below the average, split was 2:21)
- Steelhead 2014 – Avg 149 (breakthrough PR, split was 2:12, from 30:00 to 1:45 HR was below the average)
Holding ~88% of HRmax for a HIM run is impressive. ~75% on the bike. And, your notes (for both) show that you did a good job building the effort. Spot on with the coach's notes on racing with HR.
This ^^^execution looks very different from my notes where my HR is up right off the bat and I just hold it as long as I can. Correcting this execution prob on race day is on me, not the coaches. They've done their part.