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DI2 Shifting Analuysis from IMMOO

Very cool stuff.  DI2 is a game changer on technical courses like this, primarily because you can shift from the hoods.  This sort of analysis will further let you maximize the speed from every watt you push.  Can't wait to start analyzing this on my rides...

http://www.onetriguy.com/2015/10/29/ironman-shift-data-analysis/

Comments

  • Yes, very cool.

    Question: Do you think it's necessary to 'compete' on race day? I ask b/c I'm starting to shop for a new bike in the near future. Bike prices have become so crazy over the last few years. I'm wondering if I'm leaving too much on the table if I stay old school with cables.

  • Well...the answer is "It depends".

    No doubt DI2 offers an advantage but only makes a difference on the margin. It's not going to make up for you being 20 watts short of your goal on race day. It also depends on the nature of the course you are racing as well. It won't be as advantageous at IMFL or IMAZ as it is at IMMOO or IMLP.

    Ultimately it gets down to how much you want to spend. I personally like to buy my toys (cars, bikes, etc) slightly used as the prices drop precipitously after about a year. Case in point I bought my 11 speed DI2 Dura Ace P5 (MSRP of about $10,500) for $5,200 and it was less than a year old and visually almost perfect. You need to be patient and wait for the right bike at the right time, but it's worked for me many times.

    Depending on how much you are looking to spend I'd certainly consider buying an older frame with DI2 vs. a brand new off-the-showroom-floor bike with mechanical. Case in point...Coach R road the IMMOO course with me three days in a row in July. He was riding his old P3 and had installed DI2, but it wasn't set up for internal cable routing so he had a Sanford and Son setup with wires handing all over the place with zip ties. Despite that, and 8+ year old frame technology he blistered the course...ultimately riding faster than he did on race day with Dino's borrowed P5.

    What's your budget? I'm happy to help keep an eye out for you. A lot of folks are nervous about buying a high end bike on eBay....but I have done it many times and would do it again in a heartbeat. The buyer protections are strong enough in the unlikely event of an issue (I've probably bought a cumulative $15K+ in my lifetime without a single issue)
    )

  • Posted By Chris Hardbeck on 01 Nov 2015 06:10 PM

    Question: Do you think it's necessary to 'compete' on race day?



    Slowtwitch should be reporting on the #s from Kona soon, but in '14' the top ten men and women (pros) there were evenly split between Di2 and SRAM Red. Is it *necessary* to compete, or alternatively, to go your fastest? No, but it does make shifting easier, especially having it on the hoods. But if $ is a concern, aero wheels is where I'd spend first.

    And, as Jeremy notes, upgrading an "older" bike is always an option. In 2013, I put Di2 on my TT bike, originally purchased in 2000. Dont think I went any faster, or become more competitive, but I stopped thinking so much about shifting while riding. Kinda like the diff between stick and automatic.
  • noted. thanks, guys.
  • Actually I think there is more value in going to 11spd than the DI2. Like Jeremy I'm a big proponent of buying used and so I picked up a BMC TM01 off of Craigslist last year. It was a $10k bike that I got under $5k and came with 10-speed DI2. This year I upgraded it to 11-speed which ended up costing a small fortune even though I bought all the piece parts individually from the cheapest sources. But the extra gear made a big difference in my view. It gave me the ability to run a 28t without losing much in the middle. It also let me run an 11-23 for a flat race which I found very useful. Overall I use a lot of gears so it was great for me. I agree with Al that if you are trading off various speed-enhancements there is a lot more low-hanging fruit like wheels, etc, etc, etc.
  • Jeremy, as to your original post, I'm not sure what I'll do with that info. You know me well and I'm a data junkie through-and-through. But I'm stumped on this one.............
  • Good point Matt. I hadn't delineated between 10 and 11 speed. I would certainly prioritize mechanical 11 over electronic 1o. That's what's tough...it's not a binary choice. It's new/used, electronic/mechanical, 10/11 speed, box rims/race wheels, etc.

    As far as what to do with the data...I hear you. It's really cool stuff. I don't think there's as much practical application during a race, but more of a retrospective look that call allow you to evolve your race execution over time. For example if you see that you spend a lot of time in your big ring at low cadence and high watts, you may realize that you need to focus on this to lower your VI, for example. Just scratching the surface on this so hope we can learn from others as this data starts to be utilized more often. I view this as similar to swimming heart rate, which I know you have used Matt. Since you aren't going to be looking at HR during a swim there's basically no on-course application but by looking at trends over different swims in different conditions there may be application to adjust how you swim in the race.
  • Estimated costs associated with swapping from cable to DI2? Is this a $500 proposition? $1000? More?
  • David - again..it depends. What are you switching from? SRAM Red or Shimano 105? 10 or 11 speed?

    What DI2 are you moving to? Ultegra it Dura Ace ? 10 or 11 speed?

    The number could be anywhere in your range or even more.

  • Posted By Jeremy Behler on 02 Nov 2015 05:30 PM
    David - again..it depends. What are you switching from? SRAM Red or Shimano 105? 10 or 11 speed?

    What DI2 are you moving to? Ultegra it Dura Ace ? 10 or 11 speed?

    The number could be anywhere in your range or even more.


    "Even more". Yes.
  • Paging Rich Stanbaugh to this thread as he has some really interesting data from IMCHOO as well, and thoughts around how to use it.

    For me, once I went to DI2 I can't go back. I rode it on my 10spd until 11spd became an option. I am not savvy enough to say 11 vs 10 speed; real speed comes from just getting F-ING stronger on the bike. But on a course where you are making countless shifting decisions, across 112 miles, to have them executed instantly vs waiting, say a second, is huge.

    I can literally push my biggest gear in to a 10% hill and at the last second hold the buttons and I am flying. Contrast that with the person who has to shift, incrementally, over the course of the 1/4 mile build up, to get to the right space without dropping a chain, etc.

    My personal bias is that triathlon race day speed is all about conserved momentum -- and DI2 facilitates that significantly (for me).
  • What Coach P said regarding Rich Stanbaugh. He has analyzed the data from the Di2 and used it to make gearing decisions/cassette selection for IMChoo.

    I don't have the Dfly so I can't really add anything else.
  • Thanks  – I’m happy to share. Will try to keep my geek in check

    A couple things needed to put my thoughts into perspective I am not a very experienced cyclist. I bought my first bike about 4 years ago. This means that I am still learning a lot of skills that more experienced people take for granted and this affects how I use and think about equipment. Also, If I am carrying it, I want to use it. No point in having 22 gears if I spend 80% of the time in 3 of them. Currently, my FTP is ≈255 down from 260+ in August (this according to WKO4 - I have not tested recently, just using the mFTP number) and I weigh ≈69-70kg... depending on how much beer I drink this week

    Heading to CHOO, I had my bike setup with 50/34 up front and 11-25 in the back. I have an 11-speed Dura Ace with Di2 and D-Fly. There are not many hills at CHOO, it is a lollipop course design with two loops. Each loop is a net climb on the way out and a net descent on the way back with nothing that is very steep or long. Somewhat technical.

    I rode a recon loop with the 11-25 and saw the following:


    • I was spending double the time in my 34/25 (climbing gear) than I was spending in my 50/11 (fastest gear)
    • While in the 50/11, I only averaged 93w (target was 180w)
    • While in the  34/25, my average cadence had dropped to 70 in order to hit the target power. In reality – my RPE on the course was way too high to cross the rollers in the 50-25. Cadence averaged 70, but I was dropping it into the 50s in order to control power.
    • While in the 50/11, my average speed was 28.95… this is the same speed that I get from the 50-28 @ 90 rpm.
    • I shifted the front derailleur 45 times in one loop (every 3:23). I never have a chain drop on the cassette – only when shifting the chain rings. So I like a setup that I can ride the big chain ring and use the small for real climbs

    CHOO Recon Ride Stats

     CHOO Recon Ride

    Summarizing, I was spending half as much time descending in the 50-11 that I spent climbing in the 34-25, and while descending, I was only hitting 50% of my wattage target and averaging a speed I could easily hit with a 50-12 setup. While climbing in 34-25, I had to crater my cadence to hit target watts. I wasn’t really using the 11t and thought that if I went to a gear above the 25t I would be able stay in the big chain to get over some of the rollers.

    Based on all of this – I changed my setup from the 11-25 cassette to the 12-28 cassette for the race.


    • Front derailleur shifts for the ride dropped to 1 every 5:04 – one indication that I was able to get over many a lot more rollers without changing the shifting the front.
    • My climbs were now in the 34/28 at 79 rpm. No excuse that Coach P will accept for the 228w that I averaged in that gear. I will say that some of this came as 8-10 hard pedals coming across the top of hills to get up to speed quickly :-/. Some evidence of that is that VI was 1.018 and 1.028 on the two climbing sections and averaged 1.036 for the two loops…
    • I did not lose much on the descents with Pavg 143w and avg speed 30.1mph while in the 50/12 

    For what it is worth, I chose between those particular cassettes because I need a 16t gear with the compact crank. It is a 21 mph gear for me and with out it there is a 3mph gap between the 50/15 and the 50/17. This limits my selection of standard Shimano cassettes.

    Overall ride stats below – the power data below (Pavg 170w / Pnorm 180w) does not match what came from the Garmin (Pavg 177w / Pnorm 180w) – I think that there was a tail on the ride file, after I got off the bike, that I cut off for for power analysis that is still included here. Race time was 5:31:25 (https://www.strava.com/activities/401802459):


    IM CHOO Ride Stats



     

    I'm Headed to IMFL right now... here is the how I used d-fly data for the setup.

    I tried to put the 11-25t back on my bike for the flat course. I don’t have the bike skill and pushing a big gear with low rpm doesn't work yet. I burn too many matches with the mashing (knee gets sore too). Even on a flat course, d-fly was telling me that I do not ever benefit from the 11t so I am back to the 12-28 and that anything over 2% grade resulted in a chain ring shift. I switched back to the 12-28

    At my current skill level – I believe that I will always better off with one extra climbing gear than with one extra fast gear, just because one any course that ends where it starts, more time will be spent climbing (low speed) than descending (high speed). I clearly need more horsepower

    It is on my list of skills to build next year to learn to comfortably push a big gear at low cadence. I don’t have an opinion on it other that a lot of really good riders have this skill and I would like to work on it to see how it changes my approach to flat courses.

    I have been considering how I can use it during training to identify skill gaps and drive improvement in these weaknesses. I don’t have a good answer for how to do this yet… it seems best suited for matching the equipment, the rider’s abilities and the course in order to optimize bike setup for race day. It is objective data to help make decisions.

    The Di2 has helped me ride above my skill set. As a relatively new rider, I find myself shifting late. I find it hard to keep the VI super low with any hills. With Di2, I lock in a cadence and RPE, then shift to make power adjustments. The Di2 is so solid and so certain when it shifts that it is very forgiving of my novice riding skills. Similar to driving an automatic vs a manual transmission.

    I love it. Anna didn’t see the need – but I put it on her bike anyway. Now she loves it. It makes riding steady easier (my opinion).

    This is a lot longer than I intended - apologies for that!

     

     

     

  • This is the level of geekery I can really get into.
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