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Improving Cycling

Hey Coach P,

I put a general post up about trying improve my cycling for this upcoming season by converting to a mid-sole cleat position.  I received one response, which as pretty vague and don't know that the collective had as much interest in this as I do.  I've been researching this for nearly 12 months, and didn't want to make any bike changes into the season, since things we going well.  I'm basing most of my case on Joe Friel's work and have had a chance to talk to him about it some over email.  I just wanted to know your thoughts, advice and suggestions.  For 2015 my FTP peaked at 308, 3 weeks out from IMAZ and I ended up with a 5:14 bike split, followed by a 4:02 run.  Another supposed advantage to the mid-sole position for long distance is an improved run leg.  Interested in anything you may offer on the topic.

Dan

Comments

  • I don't have much to offer other than I read Daniela Ryf ( and a few other female pros) have gone to this cleat position. I think the article said its not for everyone though, based on body type/ leg length etc. Id make sure you ease into it over time and track whatever metrics Joel Friel suggests tracking to see if its for you! Good Luck!

    PS...dang...I want your power! image
  • Thanks for the feedback Trish. I've actually been in touch with the guy who custom made Ryf's shoes, Götz Heine, from Germany. Former pro cyclist, who is also a mad genius. He had a lot of interesting things to share about human physiology, cycling biomechanics and pedal stroke power/efficiency ratios. He totally had my attention, but I lost him when he started talking about a "cream based diet" that would be great for hot races like IMAZ??? Maybe something was lost in translation, since IMAZ is not typically hot and I could only be so lucky if a ice "cream based diet" would actually work for me! As an aside, I'm always amazed how accessible folks like him and Friel are in the tri world, especially if you show an interest in something. I'll keep you and everyone posted on progress, numbers and equipment choices.
  • I seem to recall coach Rich talking about slamming his cleats all the way back. At least I think I remember that correctly. FWIW I have mine pretty damn far forward actually. My bike is my strongest discipline and with few exceptions I have run well off the bike at the half-iron distance.
  • @Matt, thanks for chiming in. I heard several folks take the position of pushing their cleat as far back as possible, which is what I've been doing this since realizing the cycle leg was my strongest event. Speedplay has even come up with an adapter plate that allows for some additional aft positioning (but we're talking millimeters here). I've attached a pic to show just how dramatically different mid-sole and slamming as far back actually are. Benefits from the mid-sole really don't seem to show up until at least the 70.3 and 140.6 may be the sweet spot where the gains start becoming more noticeable. Again, this is all from my readings and not personal experience. This is a link to Joe Friel's most recent blog post the also links back to his prior posts and some of the data behind benefit of mid-sole. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/11/midsole-cleats-and-pedals.html.

    Here is a link to mid-sole image for comparison (not sure how to post the image directly). http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/labels/midsole.html
  • @Daniel, I have just completed a very non scientific test , more like an observation. I've been riding my MTB with flat pedals (grippy spikes in them) and just normal shoes. I compared the center of the wear in these shoes to the cleat placements on my tri-shoes and my road-shoes. There is no doubt that my natural preference for foot placement on that pedal is further back at least on the MTB. However my further back is still closer to the ball of the foot than those pictured in Friel's blog that looked almost in mid arch. I have no idea whether I would choose the same placement on a road bike or a tri bike and/or how that would effect the run.
  • @Daniel, thanks for posting on this and sharing your info! Yes, we advocate pushing that cleat back -- Joe was talking about that when Rich and I were part of his Ultrafit group..back in the day. The collective was interested probably 5 years ago...but certainly a good reminder!

    We advocate this change not necessarily from a "gaining power" perspective but from a "just use your connective tissues to keep tension on the pedal with the energy coming from your quad / glutes vs actively trying to use your calf muscle" -- I have anecdotally found that many triathletes with lower leg issues on the run have a "forward" cleat position that makes their legs do double duty.

    Given you are north of 300W, finding gains gets harder and harder. Aside from aero set up, aero bottle, disk, helmet, etc, I would look at gear selection (can you go with an 11 in the rear?) as a change for more speed.

    And yes, that run is your big focus. The Run Durability plans have you covered in general, but if you want more input on how to hack that for your year, post away!
  • @Patrick, thanks for the input. I'm looking into an 11 in the rear as I current have 10. I think I have aero set up, aero bottle and helmet down. I haven't used a disk/wheel cover, instead opting for running Enve 8.9's on my P5.

    If folks are interested I will continue to post my progress with the mid-sole cleat placement experiment. As part of the JOS today was our baseline bike test. I peaked last season with an FTP of 308 W, one month out from IMAZ. I estimated an FTP of 275 and ended testing out at 273. I use the 20 minute test, using Trainer Road and Sufferfest's Rubber Glove protocol with a Wahoo Kickr. I choose this test for consistency, since I've used the same protocol for past 2 years.

    The sign of a good bike test is when you approach emesis in the final 2 minutes for the 20 minutes test portion. Today's test was done with mid-sole cleat placement on Sidi shoes I modified/drilled myself. I could have benefited from a better bike fit, the saddle angle felt off and I had some notable left hand numbness that became worse on the hardest parts of the test. Overall, I think this was a fairly accurate baseline. I'll be scheduling my fit later this week. Here is a link to my Strava upload of the test. I include it because it has picture of my cleat placement. https://www.strava.com/activities/463284977
  • Daniel, yes please!!! And nicely done on that test...starting at 275 is a great beginning for you! Looking forward to following your progress!
  • @Patrick, just keeping you updated on my mid-sole cleat experiment. Since I last posted, I've hit about 80% of my rides while currently on the run durability plan (which I'm also at 80%). All rides have been on the Wahoo Kicker Trainer Road combo. I'm still using my home made Sidi shoes with BeBop cleat pedal system. I did spring for a pair of D2 shoes in December, but they are so backed up, I still don't have them to report anything.


    8wk Bike Test on 2016 OutSeason Run Durability Plan, Advanced, using the same Sufferfest Rubber Glove Protocol on Wahoo.

    Previous FTP at OutSeason baseline 273. New FTP at Week 8 295.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/500873282



    So far so good on mid sole experiment.
  • DM - Up is UP, brother! That's fantastic work there. Curious to know what your baseline FTP was at the peak last season, just as a backdrop to the effect of the plan and your experiment!
  • @Patrick, my peak last season came 6 weeks out from IMAZ and was an FTP of 305. This has been my best ever. I'm excited about the trajectory so early in the off season because if you remember, mid-sole isn't necessarily about increase bike power/fitness. Most of the studies show minimal improvement or not difference over standard cleat placement, but instead the benefit is in the run do to decreased calf muscle fatigue. Either way, the experiment continues and more data points will help paint the complete picture.
  • Man, I love where your head is at...and how focused you are. I am hoping that it rubs off on me.... image
  • Much appreciated Coach!
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