Resting Heart Rate for Overtraining

Gabe Peterson

It's the outseason, so time to post about random training related topics.

I saw the below article on using resting heart rate to determine if you're overtrained, and it made me wonder about other folks experience.  I've been measuring my resting HR first thing when I wake up for many years.  I use the Heart Rate app on my phone that uses the camera and flash.  I found it to be fairly accurate.  My rested and recovered heart rate is about 48 but that is after a couple days without training.

The heuristics I've been using are:

• Low-50s: Well rested.  Train as planned.
• Mid-50s: Mild fatigue.  Do a system check to see how I feel.  I may dial down a workout.  Or if it is a two workout day, skip one.
• High-50s: Fatigued.  Dial down planned workout and skip the less important workout for the day.
• 60s.  Not recovered, possibly getting sick.  Go back to sleep.  If my resting HR improves after an extra hour of sleep, possibly do an easy workout later in the day.

This has kept me from training myself into a deep hole.  What has your experience been?

http://running.competitor.com/2014/06/training/think-youre-overtraining-check-your-pulse_63593

Robert Sabo

When are you taking your heart rate? While still in bed in the AM? or later?

Gabe Peterson

Posted By Robert Sabo on 14 Jan 2016 11:25 AM


When are you taking your heart rate? While still in bed in the AM? or later?

I usually do it shortly after I wake up and before I get out of bed.  I just grab my phone from the nightstand and use the Heart Rate app.

rbogle

Used to do this with a pulse oximeter. I now use my FitBit to track both RHR and Sleep. This gives me some really good data about my fatigue and how I may feel over the next few days. 

The fitbit calcs your RHR just after you get up, so its higher than if you measured in bed just after waking, but its just a number and what you're really interested in with fatigue is the relative change day to day. The fitbit also collects your sleep data: length and number time restless or awake. 

For RHR, If I see a jump of 2-5 bpm, its likely I've got some fatigue and need more rest, but I dont know whether its sleep or recovery that i need. Sleep quality data helps clarify the issue. But sleep quality can work both ways: fatigue can create poor restless sleep, and poor restless sleep can cause fatigue. I find that if fitbit records a reasonable length & sound sleep but my RHR is up then this is minor physical fatigue, probably accumulated work, and I can stick to the plan and wait it out for the recovery days. If both RHR and Sleep are off, then this is serious fatigue, and its time to triage: get more sleep and scale back the day wkos or take off day. 

 

John Withrow

Gabe-- You might want to also experiment with Heart Rate Variability instead of (or in addition to) just resting HR. Might give you an even better view to your "overtraining" state.

http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/09/how-to-use-hrv/

Gabe Peterson

Posted By Rian Bogle on 14 Jan 2016 01:09 PM

Used to do this with a pulse oximeter. I now use my FitBit to track both RHR and Sleep. This gives me some really good data about my fatigue and how I may feel over the next few days. 

The fitbit calcs your RHR just after you get up, so its higher than if you measured in bed just after waking, but its just a number and what you're really interested in with fatigue is the relative change day to day. The fitbit also collects your sleep data: length and number time restless or awake. 

For RHR, If I see a jump of 2-5 bpm, its likely I've got some fatigue and need more rest, but I dont know whether its sleep or recovery that i need. Sleep quality data helps clarify the issue. But sleep quality can work both ways: fatigue can create poor restless sleep, and poor restless sleep can cause fatigue. I find that if fitbit records a reasonable length & sound sleep but my RHR is up then this is minor physical fatigue, probably accumulated work, and I can stick to the plan and wait it out for the recovery days. If both RHR and Sleep are off, then this is serious fatigue, and its time to triage: get more sleep and scale back the day wkos or take off day. 

 

Very cool feature!  I have an older Garmin Vivofit that I mostly use at work to tell me when I've been sitting too long.  It might be time for an upgrade...

Gabe Peterson

Posted By John Withrow on 14 Jan 2016 01:15 PM


Gabe-- You might want to also experiment with Heart Rate Variability instead of (or in addition to) just resting HR. Might give you an even better view to your "overtraining" state.



http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/2014/09/how-to-use-hrv/

Interesting!  It looks like you have to wear an HR strap to get a reading that's sensitive enough for HRV.  How do you use it?  Before a workout?  I can't see wearing an HR strap to bed.

Mark Maurer

Gabe, the Garmin 920xt uses HRV as you're warming up to determine your recovery status. I've only had mine for a couple of months but it did tell me one day that my recovery state was poor. So I don't think I've tested it enough to know how accurate it is. I haven't read Ben Greenfield's recent stuff on HRV, but what I did read a year or so ago did have you wearing a strap at night. I'm like you in that the idea doesn't sit well with me.
My RHR is normally around 40, so if it's over 43 I'll see how the warmup goes and adjust accordingly. If it's over 46 then I go back to sleep because it usually means I'm getting sick or really fatigued and I'll take the day off and just take the dog for a couple of walks or do an easy spin. If it's close or above 50 I'll take a look at my calendar and if there's nothing pressing at work then I'll call in sick because I'm very likely getting sick and I'll sleep as much as I can (my dog is my personal trainer to show me how to do that). Nine times out of ten when I do that I feel much better the next day and come back strong. When I haven't done that and go to work I drag at work all day, get really sick and miss several days of work. It's kinda like the pay me now or pay me later commercial.

Gabe Peterson

Posted By <a href="http://members.endurancenation.us/ActivityFeed/tabid/61/userid/4162/Default.aspx" class="af-profile-link">Mark Maurer</a> on 14 Jan 2016 10:40 PM


Gabe, the Garmin 920xt uses HRV as you're warming up to determine your recovery status. I've only had mine for a couple of months but it did tell me one day that my recovery state was poor. So I don't think I've tested it enough to know how accurate it is. I haven't read Ben Greenfield's recent stuff on HRV, but what I did read a year or so ago did have you wearing a strap at night. I'm like you in that the idea doesn't sit well with me.

My RHR is normally around 40, so if it's over 43 I'll see how the warmup goes and adjust accordingly. If it's over 46 then I go back to sleep because it usually means I'm getting sick or really fatigued and I'll take the day off and just take the dog for a couple of walks or do an easy spin. If it's close or above 50 I'll take a look at my calendar and if there's nothing pressing at work then I'll call in sick because I'm very likely getting sick and I'll sleep as much as I can (my dog is my personal trainer to show me how to do that). Nine times out of ten when I do that I feel much better the next day and come back strong. When I haven't done that and go to work I drag at work all day, get really sick and miss several days of work. It's kinda like the pay me now or pay me later commercial.

<p>Mark, great info!  I have the Fenix 3, which also has the recovery adviser.  I didn't know that it used HRV.  In practice, it rarely give me anything but "Good" recovery, even on the days I'm dragging ass.  About the only time it says "Fair" or "Poor" is on the run of a triathlon.  The couple times it gave me a "Fair" during training, I just stopped the session and took the rest of the day off.</p>
<p>I like the idea of taking a day off to prevent getting sick when HR is super elevated.  I hadn't thought of that.  It definitely beats getting sick.  </p>

tim cronk

Great Thread... I am going to start tracking JUST my resting HR upon waking... quick read on my experience with HRV below...

My experience with HRV.... I used http://www.myithlete.com/

I took readings for the last month of IMLP training and remained Green= good to go , the whole time, during the taper for IMLP the readings went to RED = Overtrained???.... OK so I just started, and I'm a firm believer of if it happens only once it does not make a trend.... After a short break from HRV readings I picked it back up again with a new Scotche HR arm band, the training into KONA showed all Green and then I went Yellow during the taper ? Now I have a trend .... Followed thru to IMAZ and again went Yellow during the taper....This confirmed the trend.... I recently went RED again after my PMC chart hit the lowest it has been over the last 3 years (I've been resting due to circumstances beyond my control :-)) .... So in 4 separate instances over time I received readings telling me I was overtrained when I was at my most rested... Exactly the opposite I would have expected... ZERO faith in HRV...

Shaughn Simmons

All, what JW mentions below is important.......do the research.....the HR variability will add a lot more value and accuracy to your analysis.

SS

Gabe Peterson

Digging up this thread from the archive for an update.  The barrier I had to the advice ^^^ on heart rate variability (HRV) was putting on a HR strap first thing in the mornng when I awoke.  

Well I found a cool app called HRV4 Training that is available for iOS and Android.  It uses the camera from your smartphone to measure HRV.  The publishers of the app include references to research on the validity of this method vs an HR strap.  Even cooler, you can link it to your Strava or TrainingPeaks account.  It will do analysis such as Training Load, VO2Max, and Training Polarization.  It only runs $10, and I have no trouble recommending it.

Now I just take 60 seconds when I first wake up to measure my HRV.  The app will give you feedback such as train as planned, limit intensity, or go for it on intensity.  I haven't had a really low (or bad) HRV measurement yet, so I'm not sure it will prescribe a rest day.

Tom Glynn

I've been tracking resting HR and HRV for the past 3 or 4 months.  Last year I used the HRV4 Training app to collect data.  I currently use a device called Whoop.  It's an overpriced Garmin Vivosmart .  I plug the data into TrainingPeaks every week or so. I've found that my numbers tend to swing around a lot.  I'm currently peaking for IM Texas next week.  I find the numbers interesting, but not actionable.  I don't bag workouts based on the data I see.  I haven't missed a day of training and I feel fit and ready to race.

Someone told me the following: "HRV and AM HR measure "central fatigue". Peripheral fatigue (tired muscles / tight muscles) can be high even when central fatigue is normal. I personally suffer much more from peripheral fatigue and rarely experience high central fatigue."  After several months of tracking, I tend to agree.

Al Truscott

My purely subjective impression for me, in the course of an IM training cycle (of which I've gone thru more than 30) is that central fatigue appears almost exclusively only during the final peaking days, about 2.5-4 weeks before race date. Other times, my muscles feel tired, but I don't. If I do, I back off for a day or two. I realize I've been training for something or other for nearly six decades now, so I may have a pretty good handle on how to read my body's signs. For someone in the early stages of experiencing a progressive training program with high volumes and/or intensity, external data monitors like HRV might help shorten the learning curve.

John Culberson

I collect all kinds of numbers, but when I'm smoked... I toss and turn all night.

Al Truscott

Some more thoughts on using objective data to guide recovery needs. The analogy I'll use is Donald Rumsfeld's famous line "Known knowns, unknown knowns, and unknown unknowns." HRV, sleep time and quality and the like are known knowns, meaning we can measure them, and we know they are somehow indicative of the state of recovery. But there are certainly many unknown knowns, things we know might also indicate recovery status, but which we don't, or can't easily, measure, like muscle lactate, micro tears in the muscles, depletion of neurotransmitters and hormones, etc. Finally, and most important IMO, are the unknown unknowns - other factors we have not yet discovered which are part of how the body manages recovery (e.g., what's going on in the brain when it won't let us work as hard as we think we should), and how how these factors work together as a system.

Relying on just the known knowns to guide recovery during training would be like trying to decide what route to take during morning rush hour, relying only on the traffic you can see around you for clues.

Gabe Peterson

@Tom Glynn and @Al Truscott definitely agree that the objective data (HRV and resting HR) needs to be balanced with the subjective (how do I feel?).  That app also follows the HRV measurement with a subjective questionnaire, such as sleep quality, soreness, and intensity of the training.  It includes this in the guidance.  So one day my HRV was normal but my subjective scores were low, and it advised that I may want to avoid intensity due to the low subjective scores.  I also remember reading that HRV's reliability is only on par with test subjects' subjective feeling.

I also do my morning "system check" where I take a minute to see how I feel.  However, I really want to train, so sometimes I ignore the warning signs that I need to dial things back.  The objective measure can be a safeguard against my enthusiasm for destroying myself.

tim cronk

I completely missed this thread and just posted an extensive HR thread LOL!  well I take that back as its been around a long time and see my post above.

Tom Glynn

my comments are now posted to @tim cronk thread!