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2016 JOS Wk5 Bike Thread - Rule 5 -HTFU

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  • I read this a while ago... But I think about it on all these FTP sessions...

    40% rule:

    http://thehustle.co/40-percent-rule-navy-seal-secret-mental-toughness
  • Ed...I think that rule makes sense within the FTP sessions...in the sense that we all have to face that mental test to get through. HTFU is an important principle, BUT there is still the brick wall syndrome and not getting the rest/recovery we need, etc. I think as long as we think about that as during a single workout, we're ok. But, for example, if you over interpret "the 40% rule" or "HTFU" and just said that you should do FTP intervals every day without rest...well, we'd get through several days, and eventually there would be a collapse. I've been there and I've seen it over and over in others. My bottom line = Fight through it today..but rest tomorrow if that's what's called for.

    Regarding my Tuesday bike...it was pretty good. FTP = 230 from last test and I hit 234 and 237 in my 15' segments. I had real mental issues during the second one, but again...it was just taking it a minute at a time for a while. :-) I even recovered quickly enough to be doing pretty near FTP again for the last several minutes of my hour. 212 NP for the hour is noticeably better than the usual 203 or 205 that I seem to hit, regardless of the ride.

    Unfortunately, life ate my brick run on Tuesday. Will probably tack on about 10 min to Wednesday's.




  • @Ed the 40% Rule Rocks!!!!! Fantastic motivation, thanks for sharing.
  • @William... Of course you don't want to run into the wall... You want to recover correctly so you can be ready for the next WO. And you no doubt wanna take easy days when you feel things that shouldn't be there( case in point... I took my first two days off this OS yesterday and today because my ankle was feeling some of the load). The point the 40 makes... Give the intervals Hell... You'll get through them!
  • Regarding this 40% topic...

    I'm paying much more respect to this point this year. Disconnecting and driving forward when 'uncomfortable' AND trying monitor when to back off. Seems a little hypocritical to put it that way.

    I can usually get a strong indication as to whether or not it's a Push Thru It Day by the end of my warmup. If I'm struggling after 12-15', then I've been calling an audible and backing WAAAYYYY off for the hour. EZ Soft Spin stuff. If I feel good at the end of my warmup, I go all in on the mental side of this.

    So, yes, I'm trying to tap into this idea that I can go harder and longer than what my body is signalling. I believe in this whole concept. But, like William brought up, it still comes with a physiological cost. Our progress isn't built on just crushing wko, after wko, after wko. We are smarter than that. There is that recovery tactic that has to be utilized if we're going to get lean/strong/fast in the long haul.

  • glad to see everyone toeing the line both in smack talk and motivating talk while i have been dealing with some sleep deprivation & travel.. gonna switch gears to the Al T Ski Training program for the next few days... will be watching YOU however!
  • Funny enough, I saw a guy at the gym today with a shirt boldly proclaiming "no days off".

    I wanted to say something like "wait till you're 40." :-)
  • 5X4' @ 1.15 to 1.18 RULE 5!!!!!!

    I did recover hard betweenimage
  •      5 X 4(4) @ 1.11, 1.11, 1.12, 1.11, 1.09. On the int. plan, so this was the first 5X week- last one kicked my old butt.

         Did run as a brick.

  • @ Mark and Trent - guys, leaving the rest of us No Excuses throwing down Thursday morning V02 work like child's play!  BAM!

    My Thursday morning bad dream bike work: https://www.strava.com/activities/485635693

    I am just surviving this week, workout to workout, interval to interval......

    Keep leading all!

    SS

  • I was cautiously optimistic and curious to see whether this ride would be like Tuesday's flop, something great, or something in between. Upon waking, I was pretty sure I was finally over my cold. Goal was to hit/hold 280.  First one at 279 wasn't terrible, so I ratcheted things up a bit.  Fourth one was a beast at 286, but I challenged myself to stretch for 290 on the finale.  Completely emptied the tank, but got the 290.  Which is right at 4.25w/kg.  The fact that top male pros can hold 4.0-2w/kg for 4.5 hours, then run a sub-3, is completely mind-blowing.  I had trouble lifting my feet 15 inches to get in the car.

  • I really like the way MR is putting the work intervals described below in a w/kg perspective vs. IF and total watts.  While the latter is important, the w/kg does highlight the extreme amount of effort / efficiency being laid down......

    I not saying everyone necessarily should post their individual stats this way, but you should at least take a look at it yourselves to see where you are at and put goals in place to stretch to where you want to be.   Most likely you will find yourself implementing dual goals that include Body Comp opportunities as well...... Also important to keep in perspective your gender/AG when looking at these.

    I was running ~4.20 w/kg for my intervals this morning.............always chasing the MR monster....

    SS


  • Posted By Shaughn Simmons on 04 Feb 2016 10:00 AM

    .  While the latter is important, the w/kg does highlight the extreme amount of effort / efficiency being laid down......

      Most likely you will find yourself implementing dual goals that include Body Comp opportunities as well...... Also important to keep in perspective your gender/AG when looking at these.

     

    SS

    I agree with MR and SS.  I'm almost always only paying attention of the w/kg and how I'm feeling at different levels.  It lets me know if I should be close to the top of competition on race day etc... and is a huge carrot to keep the body comp (desserts and beer) going and not get too outta hand.  I also use the w/kg of my old self and try to reach or get back to what I know I can/could do.

    My old self used to do VO2 work at 4.5w/kg+ so after being around 4.2 to 4.3 this morning I know there are still watts to be had.

    Great job guys and keep leading with knowledge and work!!

  • Profound insight SS & MR, at least for me. Made me think that chasing IF is focused on that day's wko, while focusing on w/kg is more akin to chasing our seasonal race goals. Like it.

    FYI - SI Joint strain still has me off the bike for at least another two weeks.
  • Sadly I was looking at my w/kg today before reading the thread and it is woefully low. My weight is up (and my mental grrr to do anything about it seems gone. Stupid aging!) My power test was low as well to start the OS. Not a great combo I'm afraid.

    Today after extending my run to 8 miles yesterday, my longest of the os, the bike was very doable. None of the crazy suffering I expected in that last 4'. Tomorrow I will try my ftp work from Saturday in standard mode vs erg and see if I can push more/fare better. We shall see.
  • Holy Moly! Those 5 x 4 mins seems like a lot more than 4 x 4 mins! But got 'em done:-) I held off increasing the watts from 110% until #4, then added 3 watts - for the last one I added another 4 watts. So that was good! Phew. Brick was fine after... Glad for a day off of legs tomorrow; just pool. I don't think Turby and I spoke 2 words to each other the entire workout; we were so fried! Nice job everyone!
  • Trent touched on the two exact reasons I look at w/kg from time to time: measure how close I am to the end of my genetic rope and how I compare to the bulk of my competition

    1) Most of us are going to get to a point where we approach our maximum potential, where incremental improvement thereafter becomes extremely difficult and eventually impossible.  It's like running the mile.  Getting from 7:00 to 6:00 may take a lot of miles and work, but it's doable for most of us.  Getting from 6:00 to 4:00, on the other hand, takes something you and I don't have: 1 in 1 billion genetics. You wanna have w/kg in the low- to mid-6's like Contador and Froome?  Sue your parents. For most guys, things start getting really hard as we approach 4 w/kg (women probably 3.5).  If you're currently at 3 w/kg and kg's aren't an issue, getting from 3 to 3.5 is likely going to be 100x easier than getting from 3.5 to 4. Getting from 4 to 4.5 is basically going from Cat 3 to 2 (only a few Cat 3's ever do that), and even fewer Cat 2's are able to climb into the 5's and join Cat 1 (top pro IM guys are probably low 5's).  So . . . as I approach 4w/kg, I know there won't be any more "easy" FTP sessions, gains will start to slow pretty dramatically, but each incremental gain becomes a huge accomplishment (most 4w/kg folks never reach 4.1, so even that .1 becomes a BFD).

    2) A buddy of mine who raced as an IM pro told me if I really wanted to compete at IM, just do this: get to where I can ride for 5 hours above 3 w/kg and be able to run a 3-hour standalone marathon (top pro M ride at 3.65-4.2, pro W 3.0-3.25). Sounded too simple, but so many of my friends who have KQ'd have done so by pretty much hitting those training metrics. I think age has ended any dream of a 3-hour marathon (3:12-15 is probably my potential now), but I can focus on watts and see how close I can get to that 3 w/kg figure.  Get the FTP somewhere into the low 4's, learn to ride at 73-74% IF, who knows?  I also use previous results to convince myself that this is a worthwhile endeavor: I rode 5:21 on somewhat-flat IMTX at 2.46 w/k and 5:14 on mostly-flat IMFL at 2.63.  That got me 12th and 15th in my AG.  Of course, w/kg isn't the end-all and its importance depends on the course, aerodynamics, etc., but I'm 100% positive that riding at 3 w/kg would allow me to dance with the cool kids, even if only for a song or two.

  • mike.    yes the kq metrics sound about right to me.       3 watts/kg for the bike portion.         close to three hours standalone marathon.
  • Awesome discussion about w/kg..... And I mean w/kg relative to a specific ride/race/or interval... What is the difference? w/kg ratio relative to "FTP" is nothing more than an estimate of an estimate, while its still a worth data point its derived from an FTP "test" with many variables and usually estimated from there and not a true 1hr FTP test, even if it were a true FTP test its still only for that day in those conditions ... A w/kg ratio relative to a particular ride,race, or interval cannot be debated , it is what it is , you know the absolute watts of that ride,race,interval and you know how much you weighed that day, the rest is simple math and FACT...None of this is real important during OS but really helps in determining those power targets for various race distances... FWIW my KQ's have all been ridden in the 3.2-3.25 w/kg range....with an estimated w/kg ratio of FTP at 4.0-4.3

    Been following Jan OS since the start , Still not officially doing an OS, but I have been getting in 5-6 bikes per week, with at least 3 OS type intensity :-)
  • Watts/per kilo?  I'm in the 2.4 range.  To get to 4, I'd have to lose 12 pounds (a weight I haven't seen in 20 yrs) and gain 91 watts (56%)!!!

     

  • Legs absolutely trashed this am ( My TPS Form TSB is -20 and falling) so I waited until getting home from work to attack today's bike WKO. 5x4' @1.13/1.13/1.13/1.08/1.04..... Or W/Kg using this AM weigh in 4.17/4.17/4.17/3.99/3.82. I may have only reached the 40% mark, but it sure felt like I gave all that my legs had today. Fortunately, my son has basketball tonight so no brick run to follow. If I did it would be more of a brick jog/shuffle.
    http://tpks.ws/BDZy

    Kudos to all still hitting their goals - you are all just beasts
  •      I love reading the posts from our members. The wealth of knowledge within the group is really something special. Mike R's dissection of the work we do is motivating. It does become difficult to judge where I am when I look at all of the high watts being pushed around. I was not sure I would be able to post anything remotely respectable after seeing what SS,& MR laid down this morning. After looking at their WKO's, I also knew that Ed E. & DJ had not ridden yet. I started my ride in a very motivated state. The warm-up did not give a good indication of how the ride would go. My legs were burning, but I was hitting my goal watts. So, I started Interval # 1 & 2 went well and very much like I had hoped. Interval # 3 was where the work began. I spent the middle two minutes 15 watts below my goal. I had to rally for the last minute and brought my watts back up. During #4, I started strong and held above my goal watts for 1:10. However, like the last interval, I fell below for two minutes. This time it was 16 watts low. It took another strong effort to bring that back up. The 5th interval was a journey to the dark side. I psyched myself up for this interval a bit too much. I went out 25 watts above my goal. Unfortunately, I could only hold that for 54 seconds. Then I crashed hard. Over the next 2 minutes I averaged 25 watts below my goal. I dropped to a harder gear and crossed over. For the final 1:10, I held 15 watts above my goal. I finished 3 watts off my goal. I soft pedaled for only 16 more seconds then got off the bike and jumped right on the treadmill. I completed a 5 mile brick at a steady pace slightly above GRP. 

    My stats for the ride were my best this year. I went 4.25 w/kg,  4.31 w/kg,  4.25 w/kg,  4.24 w/kg & 4.22 w/kg. The bike/run combo took 1:46:04 and I lost 2 pounds during it. I consumed one 21 ounce bottle of infinit, one gel flask & one bottle of water. I finished my day with a swim during which I learned I did not fuel well after the bike/run as I started cramping at 1,800 yards.

         Although Mike R is a great motivator, reality for me puts attaining that 3.0 w/k for a 5 hours ride a ways off. If I say that is a .73 IF ride, I need to find 14 watts above my highest ever FTP.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/485942759 Ride

    https://www.strava.com/activities/485942325 Run

    https://www.strava.com/activities/486051316 Swim

  • Some big numbers out there, and by numbers I mean w/kgs. Did 5x4 at 1.12x4, 1.15x1. w/kg for that is only 2.5, which makes me feel pretty small in the current company; but I'm okay with that for now...gives me two things to work on ~ power and weight. Have to head to a funeral this weekend, so will take next four days off for travel, etc.
  • Wow guys! amazing numbers. I only wish I could hit 4+ w/kg ! maybe one day...
    Last nights Thu 5x4' was very good hitting 1.14/1.14/1.14/1.13/1.13 , that is about 3.1 w/kg for me
    link--->https://connect.garmin.com/activity/1039664420
    was too late to go for a run once I finished, so I left the brick run for Fri early morning
  • Yup, those KQ numbers sound reasonable, but of course it's age dependent, especially in the 50+ age groups. Maybe just a touch slower for the 50-54 than those...but again, ballpark. And, of course, it all depends on who shows up and how many slots.

    On another point, Scott suggested maybe bumping up the FTP a few watts if you are hitting the numbers pretty easily. I have an alternative suggestion. Mine is to fill out the time instead. I don't feel like I've "earned" a new FTP until I can fairly comfortably complete 2 x 20' (4') at the old one reliably. Some people out there even push for up to 3 x 20'. That may be pushing it, but you get the idea. My concern is that in our overzealousness to improve our "number", we can get to the point where we are out of balance on the power vs time curve. Remember that we are extrapolating the FTP curve out to multiple hour intervals eventually. That means you want to be pretty certain that you are comfortable on the whole power curve associated with a given FTP out to the ~1 hour time frame. "Fast then far" is our philosophy, but you do have to make sure that the two are in the same general universe. There's a reason that we aren't trying to maximize our 10-SECOND power. :-)

    I was pleased with today's wko: 1.11, 1.11, 1.14, 1.12, 1.18

  • OK...got the Trainer road Saturday workout done with the 2x15' ftp after the EN warmup and the first set of TE afterwards.. I bumped my effort on standard (instead of erg mode) up from 189 to 200. I managed 200 on the first and 201 on the second. They were not a walk in the park, but "about" what I expected hr/rpe wise. Challenging. Especially after yesterday's ride.

    So, wise JOS peeps with way more smarts than me...should I make the leap to bump my watts to 200 or be cautious as William suggests above.

    I know I'm not "special"...I was out of shape and inconsistent leading into the OS. My numbers dropped. BUT...I do feel that I've improved and my current ftp is soft.....Thoughts?
  • Scott Dinhofer working on his intervals with me here @ Snowmass:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydp7AvcINB4

    https://youtu.be/ydp7AvcINB4


  • Posted By Trish Marshall on 05 Feb 2016 05:18 PM


    ...

    So, wise JOS peeps with way more smarts than me...should I make the leap to bump my watts to 200 or be cautious as William suggests above.

    ...?

    The key is not what you can do in any ONE workout, but what you can sustain week in and week out, not only on the bike, but also during your run workouts. Wait and test, then raise your FTP. #downstreamworkouts

  • @Trish, the only thing I would add is, if following your current FTP numbers leads to easy sessions for the next 3 weeks, then you're not working ~95% of your threshold and, therefore, not getting the most out of the workout. That 95% is a very specific and powerful tool. We have 18-19 FTP seasons left; I don't want you to short yourself on 7 of them waiting to test in Week 8. From my experience, I need to test or bump up the numbers after 3-4 weeks as my legs acclimate. A few years ago, when I went through a couple of weeks of easy rides, I asked my coach if I should continue these manageable sessions and just wait to test in 2-3 weeks, and he told me to "test now!" If 200 watts was doable, doesn't destroy you tomorrow, and you can replicate it next week, dropping back to 195 and waiting to bump it 10-15 points in 3 weeks makes zero sense to me. But I'm also focused almost exclusively on the bike this OS, so my POV is definitely skewed.

    Coach R could fix this by having us test every three weeks, but the team would quickly be reduced to a team of one, and they'd have to re-name it Team KMF.
  • 2x 21'(4') @ .97s and then 15' of that paceline stuff I've been tinkering with. Then, a decent 2 mi brick run after.

    taking the weekend off to focus on fam stuff. moving the inlaws is the focus.

    and, bikes are going to the shop for a week or two to get component upgrades. Hacking that time with a little mountain biking (and commuting) and lots more running and will continue frequent, but short, swim sessions.

    that should fill the time until I get the other bikes back.

    So, I'll be missing a few interval sessions but I'll be ok, don't cry for me.

    And, don't skimp, I'll be watching you guys & gals every day!
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