Swim Video Analysis & General Swim Advice

Jenn Edwards · February 11, 2016 11:56AM

Greetings!

Putting out an APB for anyone who has had their swim video analyzed by one of the major players or even an individual with proven results. Also, certainly open to other ideas!

Backstory Short Version: "Yer gettin' slower every day and right now you're playing like it's next week!" - Herb Brooks, 1980 US Hockey Team Coach

Backstory medium version:

1st IM swim split in 2010: 1:05. Since then.... 1:07, 1:08. 1:12.... woe.
I'm down with the CSS work Mike Roberts put out and feel like I've been doing that but am no longer seeing the gains of the low hanging fruit. I do need to get back to the faster stuff as I leaned towards longer stuff 4 x 1K descend even though I kept Red Mist. Upped the OS volume and averaged 15K/week for the past 15 weeks @ 4-5 sessions/week.
I've done video analysis with the local coaches but don't feel like I'm getting a lot out of that. They are very focused on DPS and honestly I feel like they've turned me into an overglider which is exactly NOT what I need for a non wetsuit swim. I'm feeling like I need to increase my cadence, but that's just a hunch.
CSS today @ 6:22/3:10 (yes, fully aware I only seem to have one gear...) is slightly improved from 6:39/3:28 in 08/15 but actually worse a smidge from the previous test in 10/15 @ 6:21/3:06.
So... going into the last 12 weeks 'till Texas facing a non wetsuit swim I find myself at at a loss.
The local club will be doing some underwater video withOUT feedback on 02/20/16 so I have a good opportunity to get the video done - I just don't know who to farm it out to for best results. Hopefully this is where you guys come in!

Ideas so far:

More volume, more frequency. Have a hard line at 20k 5x/week in this final build. Focus on the faster stuff.
Get stroke analyzed by a group/team specializing in OWS. Swim Labs? Swim Smooth? Magnolia Masters?
??? Help me Obi Wans, you're my only hope!

Thanks in advance Smart Peeps!

Coach Rich · February 11, 2016 1:06PM

Jenn,

Post your video here and we'll bang on it. I'm doing a webinar next week on swim technique, etc. Forum thread/webinar link going up in 2'

Swanie · February 11, 2016 6:16PM

Jenn- I did the last video with RTB in January and then got some feedback from Erin. He also had me slow my cadence down quite a bit (from 72 spm to 65 spm) and it's taken 3 weeks to get my speed back. But now I can go the same speed as before without redlining the whole way. I wouldn't want to slow down much more than 65 spm since open water is where I'll be racing. I would bet your biggest problem is body position followed by a poor catch, if I remember correctly from our few saturday sessions together. 20K/week will definately hammer in your technique, unfortunately if your technique sucks then that's what your going to learn. So lets get your form fixed before you go to those big weeks. Some questions:
Do you know what your spm is?
Do you have a tempo trainer?
Do you wear core shorts?

Jenn Edwards · February 11, 2016 7:21PM

Hey Steve!

Thank you so much for weighing in as someone who has actually seen me swim.

FWIW I worked with Erin 1-1 weekly for almost a year last year (hard to beat $20/session!) so I think I've ridden that train as far as I can. It got to the point where he wasn't able to provide any additional insights. I've also done some OWS with Brad and even though he swims 48' I didn't find his insights particularly profound for me. Maybe he will offer up something on 02/20 that's helpful. Anyway, that's why I'm feeling like I need to go elsewhere for advice.

Yep, I'm right around 65 SPM as well when I use the TT, although to be honest I've been using that primarily as a pacing tool and having it beep for walls only. I also did the swim smooth ramp test some time ago but it would be good to revisit it now that I have a HR strap. Agreed, it's not the fitness, that's pretty obvious but I think I could benefit from some faster swimming.

I don't wear the core shorts. I just have a philosophical problem with them. Maybe I need to get over it but I feel like they are a crutch and facing a potentially non wet suit swim I'm not seeing the benefit. I know the entire pool is filled with them and I'd move up a lane with them but I don't have ego around which lane I'm in. I know, that doesn't sell core shorts, but it's how I feel, just between us in Da Haus.

Additional takeaways inferred from your points, if I'm off base lemmie know:

Yes on analysis (here for sure *** THANK YOU RICH *** and maybe there again too?), figure out WTF it is with my stroke. At a certain point I'll have to "buy in" to what I'm hearing but once I plateaued with Erin I fell of his reservation, so to speak.
Revisit stroke rate. Maybe do the ramp test with the HR monitor. New technology, might as well use it!

Thanks guys!

AnnSloan · February 12, 2016 3:03PM

Personally I don't recommend the $$ on Swim Labs in Issaquah. I went there twice - granted it was right when they opened. Nothing against college swimmers, but the two coaches I got could swim great, but not really helpful on the 'coaching' aspect. Nothing I hadn't heard before and it really wasn't helpful. They seem fantastic with the kiddos - but not adult swimmers. I think b/w here and RTB you'd have much better feedback.

Peter Greagg · February 12, 2016 9:03PM

Hey Jenn — My take on CSS and its training is that it is equivalent to FTP work we do on the bike. When we start with power, we hit FTP intervals and as a result our FTP usually goes up — until the ceiling hits the roof (ie FTP is just below VO2 max). Then we need VO2 max sets, and /or 110% FTP sets etc to raise the roof so we can push our ceiling up some more.

So, I am not surprised that after a while, despite doing a lot of CSS sets, your CSS isn't getting any faster. So I would do plenty of quality sets faster than your CSS pace. Look at the wkos that Rich has written for Mondays and Tuesdays where he obviously intends the hard parts to be faster than your CSS pace. (eg 20 x 100s etc).

FWIW, I do 6 x 300s at my CSS pace (with 30 secs recovery). After that, I do 6 x 100 (fast first 50, then easy), then 6 x 50s (fast first 25, then easy) etc.

bob hiller · February 13, 2016 2:56PM

Jenn, below is what I received from Gary Hall in response to a message I sent him. If you don't know his background, Gary and his son Gary Jr. are the only father and son to each win Medals in 3 Olympics. Gary (Sr.) was World Swimmer of the Year twice and broke world records in 5 different events. (Gary and I are friends.) Gary has a business called The Race Club. He knows what he is doing and works with competitive swimmers and triathletes, so maybe he can make the suggestions you need to improve your stroke mechanics. Best of luck at Texas.

Gary Hall

8:56am Feb 13

Hi Bob! Yes, we do video analysis which can all be done on line. All the triathlete needs to do is to upload video to youtube,

send link to us (info@theraceclub.com). I will then review and schedule a 30 minute skype call with the athlete.

The charge is $200. I am currently swim writer for USA Triathlon, Triathlete.com and write for Beginner Triathlete

from time to time.

Did a clinic with Andy Potts last summer and learned a lot from him. Hope you guys are doing well!

Coach Patrick · February 14, 2016 6:30AM

Jenn, my only caveat is this -- swimming speed in the pool, and technique in the pool, typically live only in the pool. See Mike Roberts subsequent race performances, the day and conditions all dictate so much more than what you can do for a 100 or for a 4200 TT.

It's important to note that while your swim times have dropped, your overall race times have improved...so the overall direction you are headed is good.

Rich is doing some office hours on this shortly, but as a non-swimmer I have my thoughts as well. But I'd like to see your video for sure...having one gear is common for trigeeks. That said, I can't see you swimming much more than 15k for 15 weeks...(who else here does that!?!?!) so clearly it's the what you are doing that we want to focus on...

Jenn Edwards · February 22, 2016 9:00PM

Arrrrr... there she blows! Pun only kinda intended.

The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QFPVGx_FYE 

All I will say is.... um.... YUCK! Rather than offer my thoughts I'm just going to lob it out there so as not to sway any feedback. I DO have some ideas - too many actually and just need to gather any/all thoughts and condense them down into a few bullet points to start with.

Also, I did the stroke rate ramp test http://www.swimsmooth.com/ramptest.html and have graphed my results as well. The first 10 50s I did breathing one way down and the other back. The second set I did breathing all to the right which "feels" more organized but doesn't seem to be any faster. I typically alternate like that so as not to create an imbalance but should one side prove the victor I'm not too proud to breathe that way only in a race. IMO this test didn't have a clear winner so I'd test that with something like a few 500s shortly before the race.

I don't see Rich's webinar posted yet but if I missed it I'll be many of my questions were answered there.

THANK YOU to any/all thoughts and comments.

Cheers!

Swanie · February 23, 2016 3:49PM

For sure you are dropping your elbow. Especially on your left when breathing to the right. You improve slightly when breathing to the left. This not only puts the brakes on your forward movement but by pushing down on the water (instead of pulling back) in front of you, you are pushing your torso up in the water which causes your legs to drop and and cause drag. Remember that "reaching over the barrel" thing everybody talks about. Fingers below your wrist and wrist below the elbow. You need to start that barrel reach immediately upon you hand entering the water, that way your pulling water back instead of down. Also the last part of your pull, just before your hand reaches your hip, you are loosing your propulsion. Thats where all the speed comes from that last foot of the pull. Do a 100 with your normal swim then do one concentrating on the front foot of the catch and last foot of the pull and see what it does to your times. It's likely that you don't have a lot of strength for the end of the pull, but thats what cords or your fancy swim machine is for. I would also like to see bilateral breathing which will allow you to swim straighter in your race. A lot of time can be lost when you aren't swimming directly to the bouy's. Great body rotation and your have a nice steady kick. I have found that a 2 beat kick helped me gain the power for the front catch and the rear pull. It can be a bitch to switch over to a 2 beat kick when you are used to a 4 or 6 beat kick. So you may not want to bite off too much 10 weeks out from IMTexas. As far as your stroke rate is concerned, based on 50's it looks as if 68 spm is your sweet spot. I would want to see how your HR is effected over a 500 or 1000 before I would adopt that high of a stroke rate. But a 68 is about where I swim when I am not concentrating on slowing it down to 65.

Jenn Edwards · February 24, 2016 9:22AM

Thank you so much for the insights Steve! I'm marinating (literally - in chlorine) .... Tried some of your thoughts this morning - hard to say if I got the "barrel" thing right. LOTS to think about. Stay tuned!!!

bob hiller · February 27, 2016 9:44AM

Jenn, There are many things good about your stroke. Good body rotation, your head seems to be held at a good level, and a nice kick. And your determination to improve your swimming is very commendable. I think the main limiter is your use of a straight arm pull. If you pause your stroke in your video at various times, especially from a direct side view, you will see that your arm(s) do not really bend at the elbow. Your arm pull is more like a pendulum from your shoulder to your finger tips. I searched You Tube for a good example of swimming with a high elbow. I chose Kate Ladecky's 2012 Olympic 800 meter win. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHbNKX3VkIM  If you want, you can start looking at about 7:00. There is a lot of underwater of Katie and other women. They are young, strong world class swimmers, so the goal is not to mimic their strokes exactly, but to try to get closer to their techniques. I chose the 800 because it is not a sprint. They are much more relaxed and smooth, than say a 100 or 200.

Katie is of course exceptional, but this should be instructive. You will see the hand does not immediately start pulling back as it enters the water in front. The hand goes down, then the elbow is kept high and the hand and forearm begin the pull without the elbow "moving" backward. This is what you are not doing (yet ). Done properly, the hand will travel much closer under the body than yours presently.

If you take a video of your stroke head-on, your arm will look like an "I" when the arm and hand is directly below your body. With a bent arm/high elbow stroke, the head-on view of your arm will look more like an "L." (The opposite arm will look like a backwards "L." Pulling under your body with a bent arm allows you to use more of your power. Think of this: When you put your hands on the side of the pool to get out, are your arms straight from the shoulders to the hands? No, you bend your elbows and your body is close to your hands to pull/push yourself up. Similarly, if you are on your knees doing pull downs on a lat machine, you do not have your arms straight out in front. If you do, you will not be able to lift much weight at all. Done properly, you start pulling your hands down, leaving your elbows out to the side until your hands get down to the level of your elbows, then pull your hands past your elbows and then through, past your hips.

Likewise, if your hands are way outside as you do the pull down, you will not have the power you will have with your hands closer to the middle of your body or in line with your shoulders. This same power in pull-downs and getting out of the pool is what you can achieve in your stroke as compared to using a weaker straight arm pull.

I hope this is understandable and helps. I don't claim to be an expert, but I swam and played water polo in college and I have been coaching competitive age group swimmers for many years. Good luck in Texas and the rest of your season.

robin sarner · February 27, 2016 4:35PM

overall all pretty good.

basically what the other folks are saying so far:::::: keep the elbows higher. and with that your hands will not be going as deep. near the end of the stroke should be a pretty good angle in the elbow.

Coach Rich · February 27, 2016 7:05PM

Hey Jenn,

Bob's comments are spot on. As I look at your stroke I see:

Body is nice and horizontal, on top of the water
Head position is good, could "maybe" be looking forward just a touch.
Breathing isn't creating an awkward break/delay in your stroke.
Kick is balanced, ie, you're not swinging a leg out funk-ily from time to time.
But, as others have said, your arms are too straight.

Imagine your body, viewed from the right, on the face of a clock. Your right arm extended is at the 3pm position, and the finish of your stroke is at the 9p position. With a straight arm pull, your hand isn't facing backwards (and therefore pulling you forward) until about 4:30-5pm on the clock face. But if you can start your catch earlier = get your hand facing backwards sooner, with a bent elbow, then you're starting the power phase of your stroke at about 3:30-4pm. From there, Bob's comments about the power of a bent vs straight elbow apply.

Some mental cues for you:

"Finger tips down / over the barrel": these are cues to get your hand facing backwards, with a high elbow, relatively quickly.
Palms backwards: pay attention to the orientation of your palm, it should be facing rearwards as quickly / as much as possible.
"Close the window:" imagine you are closing a window -- you move closer to the window and pull it down with a bent elbow. However, don't go too crazy with a bent elbow as too much bend puts your hand too close to your body, and you lose power.

Finally, understand that this early catch, bent elbow from of swimming is about power and fitness to sustain it. As you start to fatigue you'll likely (1) make the catch happen less quickly, as the hand lazily drifts down from 3p to 5pm and (2) revert back to a straight arm pull. Your elbow will drop as well, which is a classic fatigue-induced technique break. So consider doing 50's and 100's of this more powerful swimming form, until you prove you can hold it for longer and longer.

Jenn Edwards · February 28, 2016 5:32PM

Hi!

Well my goodness, I honestly get a little verklempt when I think about the time each of you took at my silly video and to provide such detailed feedback. Bob - the amount of thought in your feedback and the care you took to refer to just the right time in Katie's video.... man SUPER helpful and one of a million reasons I HEART this team. Steve & Robin - we've had each other's back in the PNW sleeper cell for some time now and I'm so thankful for your input and super glad to have you in my corner. Coach Rich, of course your points are on target and I appreciate the bulleted version as it can be a a little overwhelming. Man, 4 appendages that can each go in 360 degrees!? No idea how anyone gets bored swimming!

I tried implementing a couple of things this morning by thinking about one piece of feedback for each 50 and cycled through 3-4 ideas. I'm sore in new places which means I'm swimming differently and hopefully BETTER! Mainly not having a straight arm is a big change and seems to be bringing a few other things in line too.

I'm aiming to get another video done in a couple of weeks (there HAS to be a cheap iPhone solution out there... gotta figure out a DIY) and hopefully I'll be able to post an improved version shortly.

Most Sincerely - THANK YOU!!!!

Signed, Almost a Swimmer in Seattle

Swim Video Analysis & General Swim Advice

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