Home General Training Discussions

EN Ironman Plan | Week 18 Big Rides!

Just curious about what others have experienced who have completed the week 18 back-to-back 112 milers, now with a run on both days and another ride on Sunday.  Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to doing this big workout!  But wondering what others have experienced.  I have to admit, I am a little nervous about the ability to recover enough between the two bike bikes, and only two weeks from the race?  AND, has anyone done this on the trainer versus outdoors or a combination of both?  Rich, hoping you will chime in too.  

Thanks all!

Comments

  • Jeff, I have done this training 2X now. The hardest part is the saddle pressure and rubbing. Which is an ongoing issue with frequent long rides leading into the RR. So you figure out what helps. Motrin on regular intervals, the best possible bike shorts i.e, the ones you intend to wear come race day. I used pain ointment to numb the area in advance and then plunged into Netflix for my binge session. Both times I did the training on a trainer with the race course on tap. I focused on nutrition and kept moving my legs. Sure it sucked, I was tired and so happy when it was over. The thing is, it is the hardest work out. You get it done and move on. Recovery was no problem. Tapering is a different kind of hell which you will survive as well. Come race day you will be surprised how well you perform as compared to everyone around you. Work works.

  • Posted By Jeff Lukich on 14 Feb 2016 03:55 PM

    Just curious about what others have experienced who have completed the week 18 back-to-back 112 milers, now with a run on both days and another ride on Sunday.  Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to doing this big workout!  But wondering what others have experienced.  I have to admit, I am a little nervous about the ability to recover enough between the two bike bikes, and only two weeks from the race?  AND, has anyone done this on the trainer versus outdoors or a combination of both?  Rich, hoping you will chime in too.  

    Thanks all!

    Yes, this is a big change to the plans, but I'm going to add my notes here, move this to the General Discussion forum where more people will see it, contribute to it, and then PnI may then use this to provide more clarification to the notes of the workouts in wk18:

    • In my workup to IMWI'15, I did 112/4 on Friday, 112/4 on Saturday, then another 112 on Sunday. Friday was a true RR and it didn't go so well due to me not paying super close attention to hydration during the ride. Saturday went much better as I fixed the issues I had on Friday. Sunday I just basically mailed it in / worked to crush myself in the last 20 miles, as a ride down to the San Diego area to take a train back. I was pretty hammered, no doubt, and all of these hours were done in the heat so I had to manage those accompanying issues as well. 
    • Yes, I had done a lot of solid work working up to ^this^ weekend to prepare for it but (1) I had begun bringing my run down about 5 days before this weekend and (2) I felt completely recovered by race day. I'm 47yo, if that helps. 
    • My point here is that while you guys may be focusing on the hours on the weekend of wk18, what you may not be seeing is how the run begins to taper off a good bit before you get to this weekend, so there's probably a bit more recovery built into the schedule before you get to this final push the weekend of wk18. 
    • Please see the notes of the workouts on the weekend of wk18, where we've given some clarification about what ADV, INT, and BEG athletes should shoot for. That said, we could certainly make these notes/guidance more specific to each level of the plan and, as always, you can reach out to us in the forums to get more specific help when the time comes. 

    Finally, note that the first people to do wk18 of the IM plans are the IMTX people and they won't be in wk18 until...end of April/early May? That's a loonnnggg way off! And the IMLP folks won't be there until early JULY! So we still have, as a team, a lot of time to discuss, clarify, and tweak the guidance if necessary

  • Jeff,

    I've not done the back to back 112's but these are done at camps all the time so it can be done.  As to you comment about doing it on a trainer, again doable but definitely not optimal.  I did a 4 days on the trainer last year prior to the IM plan but two 6 hour sessions is a lot even for me the link is below.  I believe Tim Cronk did a bunch of riding on the trainer for an IM so hopefully he will chime in.

    Also I'd add if you can get outside I say that's best as it will require you to practice you shifting, dealing with the wind/heat (assuming you are not of the trainer due to cold weather).  There's nothing wrong with splitting the session if you need to start before the sun is up then continue on to the road but for me I like to get a couple long sessions on the road and at least one ride in the rain to test out my skills before race day.  

    http://members.endurancenation.us/F...spx#204191

  • I appreciate the feedback so far. And Rich, I am doing Texas, so looking ahead quite a bit (but it will be here soon enough!). This will be my 6th Ironman, and for each of my previous ones, I had some good bike volume, but never back to back days like this. I would normally do at least 10-12 rides 100 miles+, with at least 3 of these in the 125-130 mile range. But again, Saturdays were my long swim days, so I normally was in pretty good shape for my Sunday rides. Rich, you are right about the run tapering beginning by that point, so the legs will likely be in better shape than I am thinking. I will likely do one of these rides on the trainer and the other outdoors. Or maybe both on the trainer! I have done several 6+ hour trainer rides before, and I tolerate the trainer rides pretty good.

    Thanks for the feedback, and hope others chime in as well.

    Jeff
  • Highly, highly recommend you do NOT do these rides on a trainer. These are the most importantly rides in your training plan, or rather the Friday/Final RR is the most important, and it should be done outside as if racing, if at all possible.
  • JMHO- 2 back to back 112 rides 2 weeks out? not a chance for this guy and I love the volume and challenge but no thanks.... I have never been a fan of the back to back long ride days, that is the one thing that seems to accumulate a fatigue that is hard for me to manage....I like to do my long rides at .75-.80 , they hurt, and require lots of recovery... This has just been my experience and YMMV... I more closely follow the Minimalist ADV IM plan with a long ride sat and long run sun approach...This is just what works for me... I still like the idea of a camp weekend 4-5 weeks out , that would allow me to have a big training spike, recover, and hit my last RR perfect 2 weeks out...Yes I have trained for an IM almost exclusively on the trainer up to 5.5 hr rides but again never back to back rides... FWIW , I believe and most will agree if you are on a trainer you can subtract almost 20% to get the same effect, IOW 4hrs on trainer = 5hrs outside...
  • This is a great thread folks, so please don't let the coaches talking here stop anything else from coming up! Here are my thoughts as to why I support adding this weekend:

    (1) The Advanced Plan is meant to be suitable for folks going big, aiming high, etc...and this year is the first year we have really honored that.

    (2) Not to mention that we have dramatically changed the type of running you do not only all year, but also in the IM plan (split runs, no runs longer than 2 hours save for one RR run) which should also free up some fatigue for you to use elsewhere.

    (3) Few triathletes have the chance to drill themselves all 12 weeks -- like me, rich, or Senor Cronk. So they are quite "light" on the bike miles, and having one final push to get that quality work in, I believe, makes sense. If you like to travel to other parts of the country to do mega miles, don't really have work commitments that fill your other time and in general consider the day a failure if you have exercised less than 3 hours...you might benefit from a different approach. image

    (4) If you read the notes, the Friday is the RR as normal. Saturday reads 112 but says "beginners do 56 miles and everyone else what you can." And Sunday says "Call it 3 hours but time and intensity as you feel". So while some of you see 112+112+112...others see 112+56+UpToYou...as a Self Coached Triathlete here inside Endurance Nation we'll support you as you make those changes to your plan when you get there. For example for me in my Week 18 prior to Texas last year, I ran 14 miles for the week to make room for the biking...no regrets...but I knew what I had to do.

    (5) This will require you to taper. Really taper. Which is also something triathletes aren't so great at. But you will have fatigue for sure, so recovering in Week 19 (only 2 bikes) will become critical...another reason why we've "Staggered" the tapers to be Run first, then Bike, then Swim...so you can process fatigue but not go into crash recovery mode.

    Please, let's keep this rolling!
  • Rich, I totally understand why you are recommending doing these rides outdoors.  At the end of the day, race specificity is king, and when looking at the purpose of this weekend, it is a race rehearsal after all.  I will definitely do the Friday ride outdoors.  And the Saturday 112 if possible/ depending on how the Friday ride goes.  I see there is a 56 mile ride on Sunday for the 2016 plans, so if any of these rides is done indoors on the trainer, perhaps that is the one I would pick.  But I hear you loud and clear about your recommendation.

  • Great guidance and clarification Patrick.  I do want to point out, however, that these 3x back to back bikes are a part of the intermediate plan too, not just the advanced.  Honestly I have not looked at the beginner or the advanced plans, so not sure exactly how they are written there.  

    I started this thread primarily because I wanted to hear from others who have completed these back to back rides with success, and hear about their experience in doing so (and race results).  When I first looked at this big weekend, I was concerned that there was no way my body could recover enough from the first 112 mile ride to complete the second without risk of injury so close to my race.  I think with some of what the two coaches have explained around the run taper, and the fact that this weekend needs to be approached with a great deal of planning, extra recovery, and good judgement on the part of the athlete, I think I will be prepared enough by then to have a successful weekend.  

    But the most important thing here might be this.. again, good judgement.  

    "So while some of you see 112+112+112…others see 112+56+UpToYou."

     

     

  • Jeff - no point in being concerned about week 18 now. Let the season come to you and follow the guidance as it applies to you (at that time). I'm a bit ahead of IMTX w/ IMSA (10 April). I have not done a lot of b2b rides until this race prep phase. Didn't take long for my body to adapt; I hope you find the same. Finally, two weeks for recovery is more than ample time to recover from a weekend of hard work.
  • I'm looking forward to IM Switzerland so I can put the plan to the test. However, there WILL be hacking based on my age and climate constraints.
    Hack 1 - my last long run will be 27 days out in Portland, OR. Morning temperatures should be at least 20 or more degrees cooler than in Tampa and I will have a much better result than if I tried to do it 3 weeks out.
    Hack 2 - I'm going to move these long runs up 1 week to the 4th of July weekend (Sat-Sun-Mon). Thinking maybe 112-76-112 for a 300 mile, 3 day smackdown that will give me 20 days vs 14 to recover...a nod to my age and not having to take a day-off work for the first ride. I will probably cap my ride to 80 miles for 2 weeks out as I start the taper. I will report back late July.
  • Jeff,
    With the guidance of P last year leading up to IMWI, I had some monster bike weeks (at least for me) and I will say a few things on how that went for me. First, I had my best bike split by a lot and felt way better getting off the bike than in previous races. So the results were there for me. Mentally (and schedule-wise) it was a bit tough and I certainly could tell my legs have done some work. And the reduction of the run does help more than anticipated when I looked at it. So I will say that when the plan was given to me, I too had a hard time wrapping my head around it, but basically just sucked it up and saw the benefits on race day.
Sign In or Register to comment.