Dave - I get the feeling. I also feel there is a hierarchy @ Kona. I get to say I was in the same race with the best in the world - the pros - but I'm not one of them. The lottery and sponsor attendees get to say they raced at Kona - but they don't get to say they qualified. It's a special feeling to simply be there - witness the 1000's every year who come as "pilgrims", not in the race at all, just want to be on the same roads with those who are. I'm happy to share that feeling with any and everyone in the triathlon world.
Still, the two things I am proudest of (in order) in my triathlon career are (1) qualified 9 separate times for Kona (sometimes twice in one year) and (2) the AG wins I have in IM races. These are the things I earned by [funny - auto-spell wrote that as "buy" ] the sweat of my brow. I don't think those accomplishments are demeaned by others racing @ Kona who arrived without qualifying. $ can't buy persistence, discipline, consistency, and obsessive attention to detail, which is what I think got you and me there multiple times. Along with a little luck in body type.
My new thinking is get rid of the AG brackets and let's compete based on household income. $0-$50k group, $50.1k - 100K, $100.1K - $150K, etc... That would be awesome! You would staple your tax return to your left calf. ...
OK by me ... as long as we include a "Medicare" division.
I agree: an enjoyable thread, and I'm surprised it has greater even legs than it had on Slowtwitch!
To the point of exceptions: multiple exceptions to the standard of "by qualification" do not make them collectively legitimate and comprise the nature of the race. Many wrongs don't add up to a right. The rules are "by qualification". If Marc B didn't qualify, then he is not there legitimately, and what he did on race day wasn't complete the "WC" as much as completed a pageant that took place the same day and time as the race, where he had a bib, bike spot, and was called an ironman. But it wasn't legit to the extent that he sees it meriting prestige, bragging rights, or honour. a clunky metaphor, I know, but his finish is the fruit of a poison tree if it's portrayed as anything except having got in as an exception in the first place. And while I appreciate the portrayal of the number of people he 'beat' in 2013, let's separate the DNFs and DNSs to give a truer version ... putting him in something like the bottom 10%, M and F.
I'm fine with someone having money and using it how they like (though I do rail against excess generally - we're consuming ourselves to extinction). I continue to be stuck on someone believing their means had something to do with earning a place, and then holding out the accomplishment as having that came through merit. I keep being reminded of a quote i saw earlier this week about George Bush Jr being 'born on third base and going through life thinking he hit a triple.'
(Finally, my notes in this thread are probably more strongly expressed than I really feel about the issue - I keep having shitty workouts this week, and then blow off steam on the internet! )
somehow, I cropped out an important point i made when i wrote: In my simplified Kona Worldview, I believe that "legit" = "by qualification" = XC, legacy, previous OA winner, lottery (and by invitation, say, pre-1990, because there wasn't a 'qualification' bedrock that existed at the time, so it wasn't really bypassing a legit channel). In the same oversimplification, not legit=Darryl Haley (sp?), the Bachelor, The Woman from Baywatch, The Biggest Loser, and Marc B. I'm fine if they want to portray the experience as having done a ^triathlon pageant^ as I describe above, but to try to pass off the experience as a totality of accomplishment is like someone who was been awarded an honorary degree for donating a building to his/her College insisting on being called 'Doctor.'
I actually read the article again. He seems like a cool, high net worth dude. I don't blame him or find fault with his attitude. If there is "poison tree" (I love you Dave Tallo), it's the WTC. Here is where there are parallels in other for-profit leagues. The NBA, NFL and MLB all host "experiences" and "fantasy camps" for high net worth types. With the right connections, an individual can get on the side-lines for the Super Bowl. Said another way, I had a friend at Dr Pepper that got to steer a US Nuclear Submarine during a ride several employees got because we had a deal with the government.
If Marc B. did anything, he finished an Ironman. And that is an accomplishment. However, he was not a real competitor. He attended a fantasy camp....
Dave, help me to understand how lottery = "legit" with respect to earning "prestige", "bragging rights" or "honor" (words from your post).
In my personal view I think the lottery is fine to have, as is the WTC's customer loyalty program called "legacy". I don't have any problem with this business doing that. Nor do I have a problem with them selling slots to rich people. But I'll also say that because of the issues of "prestige", "bragging rights" or "honor" I stopped applying to the lottery years ago. Likewise I could afford to buy a slot but think it's an absurd thing to do.
The lottery is irrelevant since it no longer exists. Meanwhile, I think this guy and anyone else who has gotten in by any means other that a KQ don't give a rat's patootie what we think. They will be watching a future Kona on TV, tell everyone "I did that" and all but the most serious triathletes will be suitably impressed.
Matt, before you go ahead quoting me, I think your fact checking might be on the fritz: we both know I could not have used the word "honor." My spellcheck would tell me it's "honour."
Fair that I would get called out on the inclusion of the lottery. My reasoning: it had been, in its time, a way that was outwardly expressing the spirit of the race, and as history goes, was how founder John Collins' stipulated that a place for "the everyman" has to be kept in Kona. So, It's one of those things that was accepted as enshrined in spirit, place and character, and like it or not, it had also been an understood, enumerated pathway into the event, making it "legitimate" in the way that it had the characteristics of being accessible, transparent, and understood. So, if you got in through this then-acceptable way, and you completed the race, your completion wasn't the fruit of the poisonous tree in the way that Marc B's was. If you got in by lottery in its day, your entry was by means fair, not foul.
Of course, there's a question of proportion, and if I ran the world and IM (then or today), I might have chose to make, say, 3 lottery spaces available, instead of the 200, or whatever it was. And, I can also talk in the past tense about it, and take a more sanctimonious stance in present tense about "prestige" "bragging rights" and "honour", because in the absence of the lottery, the event is now, ostensibly, "by qualification."
Not sure if this reasoning stands or not, and I recognize the more I write, the shakier my ground becomes.
(Also, the disappearance of the lottery brings up an interesting point and lesson about when life isn't fair: If I remember correctly, it was actually a triathlete / ST poster who, out of distaste for the lottery and presumably the unfairness he felt it served on the world, had taken the legal steps that eventually led to its demise.)
Still experiencing crap workouts. Six words you'll never hear from me: "I'm totally killing it this Out Season."
Topics like this are really interesting to me in the sense that they remind me how differently we all think. I really like that about life. I can't imagine how boring it would be if we agreed.
I can tell you definitively that it does not make a whit of difference to me if someone buys their way in, gets a legacy slot, gets granted a celebrity slot, a charity slot or some other slot that is yet to be imagined. Today - I want to try to improve myself to win one of the top 4-5 in my AG and go to Kona.
I may never accomplish that goal. Or - I may. But I love this sport because of who I am while I am chasing that dream. If I cannot meet that goal, I may do an XC. Or, I may get there through the legacy program. I don't really know, because for me, thinking about alternative paths distracts my focus from making the changes that I need to make to chase my current goal.
If I get there - I cannot imagine that I will care how anyone else got there. Because I will have set a goal, chased it and accomplished it. I don't know what other people's goals are. I don't want to diminish either my own accomplishment or their's by comparing them. We will have walked our own paths.
If WTC gets too far out there and damages the Ironman brand to the extent that participating in the events has no meaning - then I will pack up my fitness and find another challenge. For me - they are not close to reaching that point yet.
Probably this is why I am not interested in how much money anyone has, how they earned it or how they spend it. It doesn't reflect on me. I also have no interest in anyone telling me how to spend mine - or even worse - spending it for me!! Each of us makes our own decisions as best we can according to the unique set of constraints we face.
It is good that everyone isn't the same as me. A lot of good has been done by people with points of view that are 180º different from my own!
Six words you'll never hear from me: "I'm totally killing it this Out Season."
Not only is your spellcheck broken, but so is your calculator. It's seven words, not six!
We're both right: outseason is a single-word registered tradmark, so the count is six. But my usage of said trademark as "out season" was incorrect, so ... grudgingly ... the sentence contained seven.
But according to my spellcheck, I am honoured that you would analyse this and call me out on my behaviour, counsellor!
Comments
Dave - I get the feeling. I also feel there is a hierarchy @ Kona. I get to say I was in the same race with the best in the world - the pros - but I'm not one of them. The lottery and sponsor attendees get to say they raced at Kona - but they don't get to say they qualified. It's a special feeling to simply be there - witness the 1000's every year who come as "pilgrims", not in the race at all, just want to be on the same roads with those who are. I'm happy to share that feeling with any and everyone in the triathlon world.
Still, the two things I am proudest of (in order) in my triathlon career are (1) qualified 9 separate times for Kona (sometimes twice in one year) and (2) the AG wins I have in IM races. These are the things I earned by [funny - auto-spell wrote that as "buy"
] the sweat of my brow. I don't think those accomplishments are demeaned by others racing @ Kona who arrived without qualifying. $ can't buy persistence, discipline, consistency, and obsessive attention to detail, which is what I think got you and me there multiple times. Along with a little luck in body type.
OK by me ... as long as we include a "Medicare" division.
Very well put Dave!
If Marc B. did anything, he finished an Ironman. And that is an accomplishment. However, he was not a real competitor. He attended a fantasy camp....
In my personal view I think the lottery is fine to have, as is the WTC's customer loyalty program called "legacy". I don't have any problem with this business doing that. Nor do I have a problem with them selling slots to rich people. But I'll also say that because of the issues of "prestige", "bragging rights" or "honor" I stopped applying to the lottery years ago. Likewise I could afford to buy a slot but think it's an absurd thing to do.
Fair that I would get called out on the inclusion of the lottery. My reasoning: it had been, in its time, a way that was outwardly expressing the spirit of the race, and as history goes, was how founder John Collins' stipulated that a place for "the everyman" has to be kept in Kona. So, It's one of those things that was accepted as enshrined in spirit, place and character, and like it or not, it had also been an understood, enumerated pathway into the event, making it "legitimate" in the way that it had the characteristics of being accessible, transparent, and understood. So, if you got in through this then-acceptable way, and you completed the race, your completion wasn't the fruit of the poisonous tree in the way that Marc B's was. If you got in by lottery in its day, your entry was by means fair, not foul.
Of course, there's a question of proportion, and if I ran the world and IM (then or today), I might have chose to make, say, 3 lottery spaces available, instead of the 200, or whatever it was. And, I can also talk in the past tense about it, and take a more sanctimonious stance in present tense about "prestige" "bragging rights" and "honour", because in the absence of the lottery, the event is now, ostensibly, "by qualification."
Not sure if this reasoning stands or not, and I recognize the more I write, the shakier my ground becomes.
(Also, the disappearance of the lottery brings up an interesting point and lesson about when life isn't fair: If I remember correctly, it was actually a triathlete / ST poster who, out of distaste for the lottery and presumably the unfairness he felt it served on the world, had taken the legal steps that eventually led to its demise.)
Still experiencing crap workouts. Six words you'll never hear from me: "I'm totally killing it this Out Season."
Not only is your spellcheck broken, but so is your calculator. It's seven words, not six!
I can tell you definitively that it does not make a whit of difference to me if someone buys their way in, gets a legacy slot, gets granted a celebrity slot, a charity slot or some other slot that is yet to be imagined. Today - I want to try to improve myself to win one of the top 4-5 in my AG and go to Kona.
If I get there - I cannot imagine that I will care how anyone else got there. Because I will have set a goal, chased it and accomplished it. I don't know what other people's goals are. I don't want to diminish either my own accomplishment or their's by comparing them. We will have walked our own paths.I may never accomplish that goal. Or - I may. But I love this sport because of who I am while I am chasing that dream. If I cannot meet that goal, I may do an XC. Or, I may get there through the legacy program. I don't really know, because for me, thinking about alternative paths distracts my focus from making the changes that I need to make to chase my current goal.
If WTC gets too far out there and damages the Ironman brand to the extent that participating in the events has no meaning - then I will pack up my fitness and find another challenge. For me - they are not close to reaching that point yet.
Probably this is why I am not interested in how much money anyone has, how they earned it or how they spend it. It doesn't reflect on me. I also have no interest in anyone telling me how to spend mine - or even worse - spending it for me!! Each of us makes our own decisions as best we can according to the unique set of constraints we face.
It is good that everyone isn't the same as me. A lot of good has been done by people with points of view that are 180º different from my own!
We're both right: outseason is a single-word registered tradmark, so the count is six. But my usage of said trademark as "out season" was incorrect, so ... grudgingly ... the sentence contained seven.
But according to my spellcheck, I am honoured that you would analyse this and call me out on my behaviour, counsellor!