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Run durability and Get Faster

What is the EN guidance for Run Durability during the get Faster program?  I just finished Nov OS and then swim camp and want to continue RD.  Are we to just add frequency of TP runs?
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  • we are in the same boat.  Rich has me on the get faster plan.  Seems to increase volume and add swimming.  The run frequency seems to be there as well.  I am only in day two, but it seems like it is going to give me the push i needed.

     

     

  • I'll be starting 8 weeks GF next week. My plan is to keep running (hopefully) 7 days a week. 45' on days I swim, 30' as a brick on days I bike, and one day of 70-90' long run. I'm not yet sure how I will add in intensity.

    I reflect on a conversation I had with Turby Wright in Kona after the race. He had an outstanding run there. He's been a life-long runner - 4 decades or so, staying relatively fast the whole time. I asked him about his training, and how he avoided injury and breakdown after all those years. He insisted, it was all about consistency, very little intensity, just get out and run Z1-Z3 as much as possible, as often as possible.

    Then, there's Joe Friel, who says to be fast after 50, you gotta do some intensity every week. But I suspect that is more easily applied to cycling, That's his primary focus as a coach, you know. Over the past year or two, as I try to apply it to running and swimming, I find myself dealing, for the first time in my life, with chronic tendonitis in my Left elbow and Right knee/hamstring.

    So for now, at least, I'm gonna go with daily running and very little "speed" work, but keep up the FTP and VO2 sessions weekly on the bike. Swimming, since I've just started back after resting  that elbow for a few months, I'll have to wait and see what I can handle in addition to going 3 x 1' each week.

  • @Al, FWIW based on what I experienced during my 13 months of running everyday, I think your plan is totally doable and your IM marathon pace will get itched into your body/mind. However, I recommend doing 1 or 2 runs a week based on how you feel and not a prescribed time, pace or distance...Treat these as recovery days/runs. I actually found running to be a good recovery the day after hard run/bike workouts.
  • You made me look at the plan and we "only" have 4 runs/week. But I think those runs are harder than the OS plan, specially the 60' run. Also the Sunday seems to get longer by the week.

    On my side I add running to get to the pool and come back home. This adds about 8K to my weekly milleage.
  • The GF plan, as it exists right now in your dropdown, has been very successful for the past ~4yrs. However, PnI are currently in the process of rewriting it, with lots of changes and to make it 10wks vs 8wks. We'll get that uploaded shortly for everyone to use, thanks for your patience. 

  • I'll be starting 8 weeks GF next week. My plan is to keep running (hopefully) 7 days a week. 45' on days I swim, 30' as a brick on days I bike, and one day of 70-90' long run. I'm not yet sure how I will add in intensity.

    I reflect on a conversation I had with Turby Wright in Kona after the race. He had an outstanding run there. He's been a life-long runner - 4 decades or so, staying relatively fast the whole time. I asked him about his training, and how he avoided injury and breakdown after all those years. He insisted, it was all about consistency, very little intensity, just get out and run Z1-Z3 as much as possible, as often as possible.

    Then, there's Joe Friel, who says to be fast after 50, you gotta do some intensity every week. But I suspect that is more easily applied to cycling, That's his primary focus as a coach, you know. Over the past year or two, as I try to apply it to running and swimming, I find myself dealing, for the first time in my life, with chronic tendonitis in my Left elbow and Right knee/hamstring.

    So for now, at least, I'm gonna go with daily running and very little "speed" work, but keep up the FTP and VO2 sessions weekly on the bike. Swimming, since I've just started back after resting  that elbow for a few months, I'll have to wait and see what I can handle in addition to going 3 x 1' each week.

    @Al Truscott did you find this to be true? and @Turby Wright do you still stand by the statement its all about consistency?  Thanks! 


  • @ Yvette, First, HUGE congrats on your IMCHOO race!! The noise you heard was Carol yelling into the computer as we followed you! We were so happy to see all your hard work pay off. Well done!! Yes, the older I get the more I believe consistency is number one. Frequent running by RPE and no real intensity until about 8 weeks before my race. Some days I might average 9:15 pace some days 8:00 or a little better all depending on RPE. Never anything more than "comfortably hard" and only if I feel good. 8 weeks out I'll start some mile repeats and long tempo runs every other week and never more than Z3 pace. The paces we run in these long races is really quite slow if you think about it so I think strength (from consistency) is number one. Also, the risk of really hard running is just too great, especially for us OF's. The 100 day run challenge coming up is a perfect way to get some consistent running in. I'll be doing plenty of easy 2 mile runs when it starts!
  • edited October 22, 2017 12:50PM
    @Turby Wright @carol_defazio ....Thank you both so very much! Yes, I could hear you Carol it gave me the push I needed. Along with Trish,Bob John and my Entourage for the last 5 IM attempts. Finally 6 was the magic number! Darn,I started thinking I was half way to a legacy spot to KONA...5 DNF only 7 more to go. Hahaha, oh, thats right its 12 finishes! Never the less I'm proud of every race and each journey that evolved. Thank you again! 
    I look back on all my training and this year I finally felt good running. I started the year with 2- 1/2 marathons, 1 full in the spring ,lots of long runs and will end the season with the Vegas Marathon. I didnt watch my  pace like before, only RPE during training. Towards the middle of the season I was able to keep up with the group runners. 
    I will keep trying using your theory. Thanks again! 
  • Yvette - I had the same conversation with Turby in Hawaii a few years ago, when I first start (@ age 65/6) to get running related injuries, which I attributed to trying to go fast. And I did read Friel's work on this on his blog, before he put it together in his book.

    I have come to the same conclusions you have: cycling intervals are probably OK, swimming is suspect, and running is still a no-no for me. I am able to run daily at a pace of 8:30-8:50 (which means the first mile is about 10 min/mile, and the fastest is in the range of 8:1X, sometimes as fast as 7:5X), basically what Turby outlines above.

    This is VERY HARD for me to accept, because the only thing I've ever liked about running was GOING FAST (for me, 6:20-7:00 min/mile). Doing a bunch of track intervals, or a 5K race. Everything else I view as work, not fun, unlike swimming and biking and racing. I'm going to try a 5K in November, aiming for a "comfortably hard" pace, not an all-out one for 22 minutes, and we'll see how that goes.

    For cycling, while I can continue to do VO2 and FTP intervals, I can no longer do them at the frequency we see on our OS. This year's OS seems to have a five week cycle. I am planning on doing 2-3 VO2 sessions and 2-3 FTP sessions each of those 5 week blocks. You may be able to do them more frequently, depending on how quickly you seem to recover.

    My injuries during 2015 and 2016 were recurrent upper hamstring in my right leg, happening every time I started up intervals after recovering from a race. But in Dec, that happened in my left leg, more severely, with persistent piriformis sciatica (basically, pain in the butt whenever I sit wrong for too long, like a car trip or plane ride.) I've added several stretches and body weight exercises to my daily routine, which has seemed to help keep that at bay.
  • I am only 42, but I swear by the same. It seems like every time I turn on the burners for longer than 30-60 seconds, I pay for it -  like clockwork. I am 3 weeks into yet another run jail for going 10-15 minutes at z4 speed. So very frustrating. When I get back, it will be slow and consistent as frequently as possible.
  • Welcome to the club. I have been cutting short most of my runs and have avoided speed at all cost. It seems for the next months I have to commit to a slow pace if I want to avoid injuries.

    That being said I have been able to run almost every day without creating additional damage to the Achilles. It’s not pretty but it beats being on an orthopedic boot again
  • Hello @Yvette Metz -- run consistency is everything.  And looks like you proved it this year ... those early-season races surely had you running regularly ... and that run fitness showed up at the IM run

    It worked for me as well: started Run Durability last November and kept at it all the way through IMLOU; no speed work other than the 30-second strides and getting into Z4 HR during races.  Just steady weeks of running with nothing fancy, and no spikes in weekly miles or single-run miles

    Frankly, it was kind of boring, but it sure worked
  • @Al Truscott  I am intrigued with your thoughts on run frequency vs run frequency plus intensity as Joe Friel prescribes. I miss running hard but every time I do it I pay for it. Ever since I aged up 60-64 AG I'm watching HR go up for lower efforts. 

    Do you feel that adding strength training to to the run durability will help with keeping tendons strong and more injury proof? 

    I'm coming off a season of rehab from a crash and feel like all the body work I've done should continue and ultimately help my running. There isn't much talk about strength training and running. I also like the idea of getting intensity on the bike, (safer). 

  • Pr'd my HIM run time YESTERDAY at the Austin HIM.

    Been doing run durability only at Z1 - Z3 intensities.  Longest run was 10 miles with other runs anywhere from 2 - 8 miles.  Ran 35 miles last week and 32 miles the week before.  No treadmill runs.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/1252719044  Ending temperature was 72 degrees.  Hard to argue with results.

    SS
  • @Sheila LeardI have done strength training most of my life since a teenager. Not as a power lifter, but primarily for swimming and skiing, the last two decades for tri. I think it’s main benefit for run injury prevention lies in strengthening the muscles around the knees, to keep patellar tendon stable. Other exercises are needed for small muscles in the gluteal/hip area (side leg raises, single les pelvic thrusts, tailor stretch, clamshells...) I’ve never had knee or ankle injuries from running, but after I started getting upper hamstring problems with speedwork, I added those. Still don’t go FAST any more, though. 

    Re: Friel, frequency, and intensity. My own experience and conversation with a number of other over 60men who are long term runners has convinced me that sadly dropping the 5k and faster intervals I used to love is necessary. I’m still on the fence about 20-30second strides.
  • Pr'd my HIM run time YESTERDAY at the Austin HIM.

    Been doing run durability only at Z1 - Z3 intensities.  Longest run was 10 miles with other runs anywhere from 2 - 8 miles.  Ran 35 miles last week and 32 miles the week before.  No treadmill runs.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/1252719044  Ending temperature was 72 degrees.  Hard to argue with results.

    SS
    AWE-SOME!!! At some point, putting in some Z4&5 work might be like adding a turbo charger...
  • edited October 31, 2017 3:23PM
    @Al Truscott Thank you.

    I need to be careful and balance load here.  Running 30 - 35 miles a week while in a bike focus OS may be my limit in terms of running Z4/Z5 intervals...... Another way to say it, would be very hard to increase both Bike w/kg and vDOT at the same time with no injury for a veteran given only minimal gains will be seen at this point.  Pick your poison and be careful not to take in too much.  Day by day.......

    SS

  • I am taking the Run Durability plan to heart this year as I am returning to the IM in 2018 and the RUN has always been my limiting sport of the 3.  I am an "ok" upper-BOP swimmer, a pretty decent cyclist, and my run is for shyte. I realize that it is shyte because that is what I keep telling myself it is.  I literally just give it away without even really trying.  And that is just lazy.

    How about I put in the work and see where it takes me?  Novel idea, right?!

    I think my aversion to running has been that it is hard on me.  It is not fun, it takes sweaty work and pounding lungs.  I am going to work on getting comfortable with being uncomfortable from now until 11/4/18.   I am on a mission and I have a passion brewing inside me that I have not felt in... oh gosh... ever?

    I am focusing more just getting out there and running the time even if it is not exactly as prescribed.  Consistency is king for me the mile repeats and threshold runs will certainly come when I am ready in the OS - but for now I just need to run! 

    Finally I am in a place that I am no longer afraid to start a new.  I am at peace that I am not where I was when I "retired" from racing in 2014 when I was at the top of my execution and speed games, but I am no where near where I will be.

  • Pr'd my HIM run time YESTERDAY at the Austin HIM.

    Been doing run durability only at Z1 - Z3 intensities.  Longest run was 10 miles with other runs anywhere from 2 - 8 miles.  Ran 35 miles last week and 32 miles the week before.  No treadmill runs.

    https://www.strava.com/activities/1252719044  Ending temperature was 72 degrees.  Hard to argue with results.

    SS
    Outstanding work @Shaughn Simmons! 

  • @Jenniferlyn Kryvicky thank you and very kind.

    How is everyone doing on consistency so far?

    I am in the Bike focused OS plan but making sure I get a run in everyday as well.  Most of my runs are TRP and a few are progressive with TRP to Z2 to Z3.   This week so far has been:

    Mon - 3.1 miles @ TRP - Z2 (short swim intervals)
    Tues - 3.1 miles @ TRP - Z2  (bike intensity day)
    Wed - 7.5 miles @ TRP - Z2 - Z3 (bike Z2 day)
    Thur - 3 - 4 miles @ TRP  (bike intensity day)


    ....and so forth......

    SS

  • But in Dec, that happened in my left leg, more severely, with persistent piriformis sciatica (basically, pain in the butt whenever I sit wrong for too long, like a car trip or plane ride.) I've added several stretches and body weight exercises to my daily routine, which has seemed to help keep that at bay.
    I'm having the same problem.  Can you please share the stretching and bodyweight exercises you have found to be beneficial, as well as any other therapy that may have worked?
  • edited November 24, 2017 12:58PM
    I'll be racing as a 59 year-old this year, so many of the young guns in M55-59 will probably be finishing ahead of me. A quick look at the M60-64 times at IMAZ was a real wake-up call. Running is my weakness... and I've been very slow (9-10:30/mi) for most of my Run Durability runs. I keep thinking that once I drop from 200 to 190lbs (race weight for past 15 yeas), and increase both my volume and intensity, the solid base that I have built will result in a gain in VDoT, and I'll be in a position to run a sub-4:30 IM run. Fact: Only 4 men in M60-64 ran that fast in Arizona. The challenge of maintaining (or improving) my IM finish time becomes clear. As essentially a 60 year old, no matter how perfectly I train (and even if I avoid injury, I will NOT run a top 4 time, even if it's 20 min slower than my personal best, when significantly undertrained on a tough IMLP course... 15 years ago. Embarrasssing that I am even thinking this way! The fact is that in my case, and perhaps some other EN Team mates hoping that Run Durability will bring back their youthful run splits... slow, steady weight loss to my race weight of 20 years ago (well below 190lbs) is the proverbial "fountain of youth."
  • ...perhaps some other EN Team mates hoping that Run Durability will bring back their youthful run splits... 
    There is no fountain of youth. Even though I only started running when I was 50, and took 5-10 years to achieve some of my PRs, there is no doubt that over the past 5-10 years, I've seen a regular 1%/year slowing. Case in point: 10 years ago, I did the inaugural Turkey Trot in my town, in 20:23. Yesterday, same course, working at what felt like the same effort level: 22:03. In six weeks, I'll be at another, faster course, where I went 20:08 on 1/1/08. We'll see what transpires then.

    BTW, my HR avg/max for 2007/2017 runs were 154/159, 144/148. My VDOT has fallen from 50 to 44 over that decade.
  • Day 40 and 195 miles in so far with no injuries..... #winning

    Updates from others?
  • I am taking the Run Durability plan to heart this year as I am returning to the IM in 2018 and the RUN has always been my limiting sport of the 3.  I am an "ok" upper-BOP swimmer, a pretty decent cyclist, and my run is for shyte. I realize that it is shyte because that is what I keep telling myself it is.  I literally just give it away without even really trying.  And that is just lazy.

    How about I put in the work and see where it takes me?  Novel idea, right?!

    I think my aversion to running has been that it is hard on me.  It is not fun, it takes sweaty work and pounding lungs.  I am going to work on getting comfortable with being uncomfortable from now until 11/4/18.   I am on a mission and I have a passion brewing inside me that I have not felt in... oh gosh... ever?

    I am focusing more just getting out there and running the time even if it is not exactly as prescribed.  Consistency is king for me the mile repeats and threshold runs will certainly come when I am ready in the OS - but for now I just need to run! 

    Finally I am in a place that I am no longer afraid to start a new.  I am at peace that I am not where I was when I "retired" from racing in 2014 when I was at the top of my execution and speed games, but I am no where near where I will be.

    This is motivating.....
  • Day 49 today, no injuries and ~240 miles to date.  TM run at 1.4% grade fir 6.2 miles over lunch hour.

    The EN Strava run club is looking awesome!  Getting geared up for the Holiday run challenge!

    Happy Holidays all!

    SS
  • Day 49 today, no injuries and ~240 miles to date.  TM run at 1.4% grade fir 6.2 miles over lunch hour.

    The EN Strava run club is looking awesome!  Getting geared up for the Holiday run challenge!

    Happy Holidays all!

    SS
    You are a freakin' machine!
  • @John Withrow ...takes one to know one.............

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