About the KQ

Douglas Sutherland

How does one decide to commit to KQ? 

To this date, I have considered this question along the same lines of becoming POTUS, the lead singer for Pearl Jam, or a multi-billionaire - total abstractions. But after reading a recent post by Sarner, who is actively stratagizing which races to do for a KQ, I think now I have been considering the question incorrectly. A KQ seems to be a decision a priori, not a lotto win (exception for the dude dropping 100K to go to Kona). Assuming one is not an ex-Olympic athlete/former pro anything/retired young-rich-single-childless SOB:

1) What do you consider pre-requesites before attempting a KQ?

2) Is it possible to KQ on a course you have not raced before? And how to you balance the # of KQ slots vs the details of the course?

3) Should one consider who is racing the course (ie look up other AGs)?

4) Where should KQ fall on your commitment list? (God, family, corps...KQ?) for an honest attempt at KQ?

5) EN. Now, you all know I love EN. Work works, I know. But I have the distinct impression, trolling the KQers on this site, that the EN plans are not designed for a KQ bid. True or false?

DS

Scott Giljum

Doug,
My two cents on your questions are these. To me trying to KQ is a mindset and a focus. I am not a former pro anything and really my only super power is that I am too stupid to stop or say no when common sense would dictate I should. This, by the way, seems like a pretty common super power around these parts. For me to start thinking about it, I have to feel like I have ranked near the top of my age group and still have room to improve. Vague I know, but I think it is different for everyone. I know I need to be within striking distance of the top, otherwise I am only fooling myself. Maybe top 10%? While I have grown to get near that, for me the motivation is still there and more turns into I want to put forth the best I can to see where the best me stacks up.

Not sure how others approach it, but I try not to geek over who is racing or what past splits looked like, etc., because that is all stuff I can't control and only leads me to get more twisted up than I already am on that day. I do consider the course relative to what should work best for me. I am not a bit horse, so I don't think a flat fast course is going to give me the best result. I want hills and a course I can run you down on. I am also a decent swimmer so I don't want a course like Choo where I can float on my back and get a PR.

In looking to KQ I do think course familiarity helps but is not a requirement. Having ridden a bike course a few times before the day will certainly give you more confidence and muscle memory to execute at your best that day.

Priority of it to me depends on the day and the set I am currently working on. I like to think I keep in mind that this is my hobby, and it will always fall below family and work, but then I see myself cutting out of work early to sneak in a run or missing a kid swim meet so I can get in a bike. Most of that is just me and putting my priorities in the wrong place, but having it a strong focus when doing your work will make sure you get that last little effort out you might miss otherwise.

As for EN plans, I think you can certainly do them and KQ. Especially with the modifications that are being made to them this year, I think they even better reflect the work done by folks who have, esp RnP. Maybe not the beginner plans, but certainly the advanced. (I honestly have to plead ignorance about the beginner plans as I haven't seen them myself).

I personally have talked to P and others about my goal and have things I work on. Goal one was good execution, which I thought I was doing but a hard honest look showed I wasn't. I did that fairly well this last go round, so now I need to keep building the horse power.

Just my input, coming from a guy who has KQ as a goal, though knowing it definitely falls in the stretch goal category.

Coach Rich

PnI field "someday I wanna KQ" questions and comments all the time. Notes:

This is a seriously legit, world class athlete kinda undertaking and it's very important that you understand who you're getting into the ring with and what it takes to compete. A very significant change I've noticed in my 15+yrs as an Ironman coach and pointy end competitor is that increasingly, especially in the older AGs (35+), KQ'ing is as much about lifestyle as it is about physical ability and training. That is, increasing, the boys and girls who are KQ'ing have spent years honing nearly every aspect of their lives (work, family, etc) to support their goal of qualifying. When I toed the line at IMWI'15, I knew my competition were guys who've been doing this a very, very long time. They do not make mistakes, they are as hard as nails, and they've done their homework on every small detail. But they've also configured their lives to enable them to do serious work in the last 12-20wks of training. 

I'm that guy and if you're competing against me, know that I have the lifestyle to train 18-25hrs per week with very little admin cost (ie, right out of my door, basically), sleep 8-10hrs a day, control everything I put into my mouth, etc. That's a huge advantage I have over my real world with a family competition. I'm not alone and my competition are apex predators who've also honed their lives to a similar sharpness. 

Yes, KQ'ing likely does require some serious volume in the last ~8wks and, as Scott said, the changes we've made to the plans for '16 reflect the things that PnI learned this past summer doing just that. The Advanced plan in particular is about as Advanced as it's ever been. 

The net is that I don't think there's much value in gaming who going to show up, etc, though the number of slots available (ie, IMCDA now with 60 slots) is certainly a valuable consideration. For me, KQ race selection criteria are:

• Timing of the race: this is huge, always has been and will be. Does the timing of the race support me doing serious work in the last ~8wks, as a function of climate, hours of daylight, work and family commitments, etc.
• Does the course leverage my strengths and minimize my weaknesses? My perfect course is a beach start swim with 8ft surf and 3-4ft swells, a technical bike course with minimum 8k of gain...and a dead flat run . Until they make that one for me, IMWI is about as good as it gets for me, though I wish the race was in July to make for a shorter training block. It gets lonely here in August...

My broader point is that when people say "oh, I wanna KQ someday," I don't think they really understand just how difficult that is these days and what it takes. It's serious, serious business, and the older folks get smarter and smarter, increasingly hone their lifestyles, and slots get fewer and fewer. 

tim cronk

1) What do you consider pre-requesites before attempting a KQ? Depends on when the attempt is... This year ? I'd say past performance in the top 10%minimum ... Next year a top 20% minimum... Of course those arent hard but would provide at least some indication of fitness/ability/confidence/consistency required to make that next step.

2) Is it possible to KQ on a course you have not raced before? YES - but knowing the course is very important - riding most courses a couple times is all that is needed for a huge advantage- at least viewing the run course would be helpful - even swimming on the course would help but much less so.... And how to you balance the # of KQ slots vs the details of the course? I think in the past this has proven to be a suckers bet... I think the best one can do is choose a course that fits their strength's (that is probably the most important -a course that fits your strengths) , schedule, etc and then just let the cards fall where they may depending on who show's up. Execution execution execution %100 percent and accept the outcome....

3) Should one consider who is racing the course (ie look up other AGs)? NO- but you will anyway... The big thing is to not let who show's up get into your head.... There is always 1 or 2 guys who have handily beat you in the past that you will be worried about but when you have your day they will not be a factor.... Stay in your BOX on this one !

4) Where should KQ fall on your commitment list? (God, family, corps...KQ?) for an honest attempt at KQ? Honestly the KQ is way down the list of priorities to what is really important in life.... But time/life commitments allowing it needs to be as high as you can put it... On my first KQ I spent 4.5 months on a trainer/treadmill training thru the winter of NH and then moved to The Woodlands Texas and lived in a Extended Stay box for 2.5 weeks by myself , training, eating, focussing Peter Reid style...

5) EN. Now, you all know I love EN. Work works, I know. But I have the distinct impression, trolling the KQers on this site, that the EN plans are not designed for a KQ bid. True or false? YES the EN plans are all you need... BUT you need to exercise some of that self-coached thinking, using the EN guidance/coaches , adapt things to what works for you.... If your really serious , probably the biggest problem will be following the plans into brick walls and holes needed to recover from... Little confession here- in the past I have searched for a one on one coach- met with a couple- had a consultation with another- never found one I thought would give me more than EN.... I have followed athletes from EN to other coaches, asked them questions about those coaches and again felt they were gaining nothing over what we have here... The EN model works but maybe not for all but if you are motivated , smart , willing to use the tools, and adapt, then every thing is here !

Al Truscott

Observations, primarily based on my own journey:

• I didn't even start to run, much less do triathlons, until after I had downsized my career significantly, and after my first kid graduated from high school. So, for me, work and family came first, until they didn't have to anymore.
• My first year in triathlon, I did "OK", but not great. Meaning I was in the top third of my AG routinely, but certainly not at the very top. But, I do think if I had found myself in the bottom half, or even the middle third, I never would have gotten the bug.
• By my second year, other people were telling me I should do an Ironman, and even consider whether I had it in me to KQ. My first IM I finished 18/72, top 25% barely. Not all that auspicious. But again, I think if I had been even in the second quartile, I would never have gotten a gleam in my eye to moving upwards.
• Nonetheless, I started thinking about what it might take to raise that to KQ level. I was an inexperienced runner, so I started entering running races, up to and including marathons, getting sidetracked for a couple of years with getting to Boston.
• Once I did that, I learned the level of commitment to the work - meaning daily consistency - required to raise my game. It became my number one focus in life. I did not ignore my work, or family, or other avocations, but I did make decisions about when to take vacations, when to go out on the town, whether or not to go skiing (a REALLY big deal for me) etc, based on training and racing needs.
• The final piece of the puzzle, for me, was learning how to execute a race EN (specifically Rich Strauss) style.
• Two of the three IM courses I've qualified on, I did it my first time around: Wisconsin, and Arizona. The terrain differences between those two are massive, telling me its the training and the execution, not the course itself, that is key.
• I didn't start looking at who would actually be in the race until the past couple of years. I've since learned that is a limiter, not an enabler, and I would like to get back to not worrying about the competition again, especially in this day of staggered starts.
• The EN Advanced plans are the real deal. I've used them specifically in 5 of my 7 AG wins. The only thing I really added was bike commuting to work, but those weren't really workouts. I'm pretty sure if some of the guys I beat had used those plans, I would have lost.

Conclusions:

• You gotta start with a realistic assessment of what you bring to the table: body type, athletic background and skills relative to the general population, willingness to devote the time and mental energy needed, current triathlon performance relative to your AG peers. 
• You have to go all in, starting with accepting the goal, through simply showing up day after day after day to do the work. Even if it means bike commuting, running at lunch, going back to the gym in the evenings, whatever. Then keep working on each and every detail which is the chess puzzle of Ironman success, both before and during the race.
• Analyze, analyze, analyze, objectively. Don't make excuses. Instead, make plans for improvement.
• You have to be willing to accept and work through failure. For almost all of us, it didn't happen overnight, or even over 2-3 years. 

It's a tough thing to sustain that level of committment, IMO. Eventually, something will break down, either the body or the resolve, or both. Fending off that breakdown is the hardest part of the task. Looking back I think I was simply blind to the possibility of not committing.

Mike Roberts

Hey DS,

Following on Scott's great comments:

1) I'd focus on the physical long before you start planning, strategizing or obsessing about a KQ run.  In short, get yourself to a Sarner-like position. He just moved to a new AG where sub-10 often gets it done.  And he's a proven, legit sub-10 guy.  Thus, his race-selection "strategizing" makes sense.  You should just be focusing on getting fast (some combo at/near swim an hour, bike @3 w/kg, 3-hr standalone marathon speed) and become a great, smart racer (i.e., consistently beating guys who are "faster" than you by 15 minutes, through perfect transitions, spot-on nutrition, on-the-fly problem solving, etc.). I bet 90% of every IM field makes a race-day mistake that costs them significant time.  Unless you have overwhelming abilities, you have to be part of the 10%.

I like Scott's 10% AG suggestion as an intermediate goal, with top 5% being the next goal. I've been top 4% and 3% and, on both occasions, was more than a few roll-downs away from a spot.  But more importantly, I've gone from being more than an hour out of a spot to less than a half hour out. I can't fathom trying to shave 90 minutes.  But I can definitely find 15-20 minutes of improvement.  Same for you: if you do a couple of 11:30's this year, it'll be difficult to map out a short path to 10.  But if you do a couple of 10:30's, different ballgame.

2) On some bike courses (Moo), course knowledge is very beneficial, but there are many courses were intimate familiarity means jack.  As to balancing the # of KQ slots vs the details of the course, find a course where you have a legit shot to go top 5 in your AG.  If you don't have a real shot at top-15 on a course, it doesn't matter if there are 30 or 75 slots.

3) There are some ex-pros racing the 40-55 AGs, and they simply dominate - Chris Hauth and Jurgen Zack, for example.  A couple of years ago, Kenny Glah and Scott Molina decided to battle in the 50-54 AG at IMNZ.  That surely sucked for a handful of fast guys who thought they had a chance that day.

4) As for prioritization, I've known guys (they always seem to be male, don't they?) who obsessed with qualifying for at least a decade, putting IM way ahead of family and friends.  Not surprisingly, most people considered them to be self-absorbed DB's. Compare Cronk and Truscott.  Be the latter, not the former.  Life is too short not to have fun.  Have fun training and racing.  If you find yourself in the 4:45/10:00 speed range in the near or distant future, then give it a run.  If not, be content having fun racing with the other 98% of us.

5) The Adv plan has you riding 350+ miles in Week 18 and running 50 in a couple other weeks. These plans are truly legit, with no compromise on quality or quantity. The coaches and some of the really experienced folks do customize the plans to match their particular needs and skill sets, but just ask someone like Juan who followed the plan to a T.  Worked fine for him.

MR

Paul Hough

@ Mike - your list of former pro's is incomplete without noting Jeff Cuddeback. He's in the 55-59 AG one year younger than me. Jeff only seeks Kona the year he ages up. And he doesn't just qualify; he crushes his peers and has set 3 Age Group WORLD records at Kona. I think his track record in Hawaii from age 35 up is 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, and 2nd (a mechanical). He is one year younger than me so when he ages up to 60 it's all over for anyone else. Although he only races Kona once every five years, he has been honored as one of the top 10 Age Groupers of all time. Naturally, he is a coach and can devote everything to the task. Jeff simply dominates. Watch for him 2018.

JeremyBehler

Doug - great stuff from all the ninjas.  I of course your mileage may vary as everyone's situation is unique.

I can tell you from my experience qualifying last year at IMMOO:

• I didn't 'decide' to KQ but rather got to a point that confirmed I was ready to go all in.  For me...putting in the kind of time I did in 2015 for 5-6  years without a KQ wouldn't have been sustainable on many fronts (family, motivation, work).   My first IM was IMAZ 2011 and I went in with no expectations.  Finished 16th in M35-39 and a good 30 mins from a KQ.  I put in hard, but not ridiculous work in 2013 for IMMOO and finished 7 AG and 90 seconds off a KQ. This was when I decided I was ready to put it all out there.
• Course knowledge isn't critical but it helps.  And when you are at the pointy end where seconds count it could make or break the outcome, particularly on more technical run/bike courses as noted above.  When I toed the line at IMMOO last Sept I'd ridden that bike course at least 7-8 times and knew every nook/cranny allowing me to take aggressive lines (maybe too aggressive with my crash!) and carry my speed as much as I could.
• In general, only worry about what you can control.  You can't control who shows up.  Paying too much attention will either worry you if there are lots of fast dudes or make you soft if you don't see any 'ringers'
• If you are going to crack the code it must be a top priority.  Not THE top priority.  If you are a religious person I can't imagine you'd put KQ over your faith nor would most people want to break up their family or lose their job merely for a KQ.  This is important, and something that hasn't been brought up before is that it should be a decision that has buy in and support from those higher on the priority list (spouse, boss/manager, etc).  While many personal sacrifices are needed there are many other sacrifices from those around you.

moetai@gmail.com

Don't worry about who shows up as u can have guys like Tim who would win their AG and decline the KQ spot because...well, they qualified earlier in the season
Good luck with your quest and nice thread BTW

Gordon Cherwoniak

Doug,

I am seriously out of my element given my IM time but will comment on #5

As Tim mentioned the self coaching aspect is huge but I see many making use of a few things like big bike weeks, big tri weeks, attending camps to get a big volume punch at a critical point to help boost their fitness.  In many cases this is a iterative process over several years consistently adapting the stimuli to boost overall fitness. Particularly I'm thinking of some of Dave Tallo's post prior to his KQ he was great at analyzing, assessing and putting out his plans to get that final few minutes to qualify.  There are lots of stories coming and more recently the Tour of California setting up some great seasons.  I've seen many EN'er follow the plan's here fairly closely but some pieces that apply to a limited sub set of athletes.

Just my 0.02.

 

 

Francis Picard

My 2 small cents since I never KQ and dunno if I will someday.

I did my first IM last year at MT and finished 51 in my division which makes me in the 20% with a 11h10 without really having a structure training plan.

I would love to KQ someday and I think I might be able to do it, but I have too much other stuff to take care (familly, career etc) to sacrifice for a race and i am in a tuff AG.

I have thought that in life you do the work that is needed to achieve great things and those things will come to you.

I am lucky enough to be able to race MT 2X during the year since the course for the 70.3 is exactly the same as the 140.6, so its a real advantage for locals racing MT.

But as some has said.. stars have to be aligned during that day and never know what can happen!

scott dinhofer

• I didn't 'decide' to KQ but rather got to a point that confirmed I was ready to go all in.  

Jeremy's quote above is probably the single biggest one that resonates for me. I can't even begin to give you the advice that the ninja's above have provided, but I think this is a multistep process, which is where I am. I also look on with disappointment as the bar is raised by less slot allocation per race (kinda like bugs bunny drawing the additional lines in the sand over and over for Yosemite Sam.)



1-can you get to the point of trying to go all in. For me, that means following the advice that I got from Tim on his dock last year. Can you do each discipline stand alone at a a KQ pace for your AG? Then work on stringing them all together. Advice JW got from Patrick, can you get off the bike in the top 10?

2-can you get to the right body comp, watts/KG, Vdot, Tpace, that will get you there in your AG? This year I am dedicating myself to looking like I would fit in at Kona. Serious work to be done on body comp. I took in Rich's stake in the ground last year when he said i will be 4.x watts per KG as ___ watts & ___ Body weight. (I have my numbers as 260Watts & 141lbs. Both achievable for me THIS year. 

3-Rich's comments above about lifestyle. Not lost on me, Patrick & Rich are basically full time triathletes. It might seem Romantic, I know for a fact that for ^^these guys^^ this is a job and at times getting up to ride yet another 4 hrs on the bike, hard, as these guys do, is as bad as me hating to go to a day of meetings in the city, it is no longer "my hobby," but it is my job. Tim is Retired, he has the time to be a full time Triathlete. I don't know what the early years were like for Al, but the last few have been pushing further and further into semi-retirement & now retirement. 

I found Triathlon as a divorce sport, something to fill the void created by the loss of my family 4 days per week. My kids are now teens, one is driving, their former nanny cleans my home 1 day on the weeks they are with me, so i can do my long ride while she is here watching them, their mom, is on call when I go training, to camps, etc. I run my own business and can go for a run during the day, be late, etc. I am also good at getting up early to train. I am now focused on designing my life and business to fit a life where I can do more leisure pursuits along with providing for myself & my kids. Wealth is not only measured in money...nor is it measured in qualifying for Kona (Tim's perspectives on this resonate loudly!) 

4-But, and this is a big but, I remember meeting Jeremy at drinks in Arizona after my first IM (I didn't look like a triathlete & he did) He just missed a KQ by very little in his first attempt (I could be wrong on how little). But clearly, he had the gift of genetic predisposition and experience in fitness to just come out and storm the castle. If there is one thing I believe I lack, it might be the genetics and thus the issue of getting past the top X% into the roughly top 1.5% you need to be in to KQ. That said, if I can be in the top 2,3,4,5% of anything in a chosen sport, I am pretty happy and can hope to get closer to a legacy slot.

Douglas Sutherland

As my condition and body comp improves, I am beginning to understand/accept the genetics issues. Previously I was suspicious of this factor - I recall a coach in high school once saying "heart trumps genetics". Though that was another sport, it worked for me then, got me a scholarship, etc, etc. At the end of the season last year, at my best condition, I could run near speeds that some of our KQ partners do, but at a HR 20-30 clicks above theirs. Needless to say I would bonk epically. I recently had coffee with a cardiologist friend and asked about that descrepancy. In short, assuming no other differences, he explained my tissue/volume of tissue requires a different cardiac output, my heart requires more beats to supply that output, and there is probably nothing I can do to change that base need/ability. He predicted my HR would come down over the years, but given my body comp at the time, not much. He himself used to be a college runner but had not trained in many years due to kids/career. At my recent best fitness, I outweighed his totally untrained butt by 25lbs. He then explained why the 'big freaks' are so freaky - the JJ Watt's and LeBron James' of the world - their cardiovascular system is similarly efficient while carrying 50-100 extra pounds.

KQ is not in my plans right now. Too much on my plate to go all in, too far from that kind of condition. I am going to settle for my AWA bronze status. I am still just riding the wave of midlife athletic pursuit that tri has provided.

Thanks for the responses. Inticing and fun to read.

DS

robin sarner

i will let you know when/if i get there.

thanks for the question.      enjoying the answers.

i did my first IM in 2009.    second one in 2010.       then started to think about the kq thing. 

is tough though as the target gets farther away with the decrease in slots.    

scott dinhofer

here is the problem Robin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkzWyOaS8kU