Swim and bike technique questions
Swim
- Strong/elite swimmers, in triathlons, are kicking more than the BOP/MOPers are. T/F? I aiming to turn the swim into a pull set, kicking just enough to stay horizontal (my interpretation of EN swim tech). I am doubtful an athlete (a slow twitchy, endurance athlete with minimal upper body bulk at that) can holding sub 1:30 for 2.4 without using the legs to get there. (I say this having just run a simple test of my speed repeating consecutive 400s with and without a pull buoy with minimal difference in speed. I also say this now that my 25yd sprint speed with full motor kick is approximately 2.5x faster than my pull set, up to 4x faster at long distances).
- I saw a swim stroke by a pro that I found odd. During the catch, his hand didn’t point down to the pool, but outward/lateral/away from the body. Looked awkward, but I tried it and felt a bit more pressure on the hand. Anybody?
Bike
- I read with interest the pros approach to the big climb at St George 70.3 - they stand up. I read somewhere else standing is ok so long as you keep the gearing heavy so as to reduce the cadence when standing. I cannot remember specifically reading EN advice about standing, but my impression is EN guadance is against this. T/F?
- Assume a steep climb (maybe 8% grade or more) in 28 tooth granny gear, cadence is 70 or less, and power is 300W+ (when goal NP is 190). (As I approach IMC) should I be springing for a 32?
- Going up a hill, is there a speed at which getting out of aero, into the hoods, is best? I often see peeps staying full aero up a pretty steep hills.
- I tape my GU to the top tube. Dumb?
Comments
I don't have all the answers to your questions (or anyone's for that matter), but here are a few thoughts:
Swim - 1. I don't believe you should be kicking very much at all if you are wearing a wetsuit as the buoyancy will take care of positioning of the legs. Even non-wetsuit I would only kick a small kick, enough to keep the right body plane. I too can swim pretty much as fast with a pull buoy and without, but with the PB I feel like I barely put in work compared to how I feel when I try to "turn on the kick" for the extra speed. Basically I don't see the advantage to a huge kick given what it does to not only the leg muscles I will need the rest of the day but also the cardiovascular consequences of me essentially going to hard and using up my active heart beats.
Bike - 1. Getting out of the seat is not a never do type of no no, but the issue is that you usually will spike your watts when you get out of the saddle, and those power spikes are the no no. If it is just to stretch the back, give your brain something else to think about, it can be ok, but for me the temptation to hammer in that position is too much, so I just don't do it.
2. More gears are better is my basic rule. So if you are dealing with a steep grade that is causing your cadence to decrease below what is "normal" and your watts are spiking like that, doing what you can to add more gears is one of the items to consider when you are thinking about your tri dollars. Body comp is also huge when you are dealing with a hilly course as a reduction of a pound or two will lead to less energy spent getting my fat butt up the hill.
3. I don't think there is any agreed speed where coming out of aero is set, but I personally use 10 mph or less with one caveat. If it is a very windy day, I will stay in aero no matter what, even up steep climbs, as the advantages to it matter.
Hey DS, below are my quick thoughts:
Swim
- Strong/elite swimmers, in triathlons, are kicking more than the BOP/MOPers are. T/F? True, but pros swim 30-35k per week. You and I can't/don't. I aiming to turn the swim into a pull set, kicking just enough to stay horizontal (my interpretation of EN swim tech). That's precisely what you should strive for: a small, two-beat kick generated from the hips, supporting rotation and rhythm. If you're using kicking for flotation, you should work more on getting the front end down and create natural balance. To me, a triathlon kick is 90% to help rotation and rhythm, 5% propulsion, 5% flotation (just making up those numbers, but you get the gist). I am doubtful an athlete (a slow twitchy, endurance athlete with minimal upper body bulk at that) can holding sub 1:30 for 2.4 without using the legs to get there. (I say this having just run a simple test of my speed repeating consecutive 400s with and without a pull buoy with minimal difference in speed. I also say this now that my 25yd sprint speed with full motor kick is approximately 2.5x faster than my pull set, up to 4x faster at long distances). Lots of skinny, slow-twitch folks can easily hold sub-1:30s w/o kicking much. Cronk is almost invisible sideways and does that easily. I've held 1:19 over 2.4 with a tiny 2-beat kick. Just takes focus on form and lots of fitness.
- I saw a swim stroke by a pro that I found odd. During the catch, his hand didn’t point down to the pool, but outward/lateral/away from the body. Looked awkward, but I tried it and felt a bit more pressure on the hand. Anybody? Nuts. The video was probably pointing out the flaw in his catch. It was almost certainly on the non-breathing side, with his opposite hand compensating for his over-rotation on the breathing side. Almost all of us do it (although it's currently near the top of my elimination list). But it's not good for the shoulder, it doesn't support a high-elbow catch of the water with hand/wrist/forearm, and it takes an arm outside the tube. Cronk has an active discussion in the forums that hits on this. http://members.endurancenation.us/Forums/tabid/57/aft/20709/Default.aspx You should head over there - lots of photos and videos of the wide arm on non-breathing side. I would also encourage you to post a video and let the team attack your stroke.
Bike
- I read with interest the pros approach to the big climb at St George 70.3 - they stand up. I read somewhere else standing is ok so long as you keep the gearing heavy so as to reduce the cadence when standing. I cannot remember specifically reading EN advice about standing, but my impression is EN guadance is against this. T/F? What Scott said. No hard/fast rule about no-standing. Just keep the watts in check.
- Assume a steep climb (maybe 8% grade or more) in 28 tooth granny gear, cadence is 70 or less, and power is 300W+ (when goal NP is 190). (As I approach IMC) should I be springing for a 32? Standard or compact crank? With a compact-28, I am able to spin up 15% grade at 220-60 watts. But when the pitch reaches 18%, I found myself above 300w, which is not good for racing. At 20%, I hit 350-60w. Just review some TP or Strava files and compare watts to grade. If IMCA has some prolonged stuff at 15%, for example, and you can only climb 15% in your granny gear by going above FTP, time for a new granny gear.
- Going up a hill, is there a speed at which getting out of aero, into the hoods, is best? I often see peeps staying full aero up a pretty steep hills. I like Scott's swag of 10mph.
- I tape my GU to the top tube. Dumb? I tape 3 to my stem, between the arm rests, behind and a little under my aero bottle. No way wind will ever touch them from any direction. Taping 6 to the top tube probably isn't great, especially with cross winds. Aero bento, pocket or zipped up in your top would probably be better.
Standing always is slower for me , I always drop cadence/power and up a gear or two when standing and the result is a slower speed than if I just stayed seated and spinning... I avoid if at all possible... If I Need a break I'll stand but it comes at a time cost and once you start standing I seem to want to do it more often... The what is the ok speed sit up in , is a relative speed question and highly dependent on the wind.... I dont know exactly when that is , just consider when riding into a 10mph headwind you are gonna pay a huge speed price when sitting up wether you are riding 8mph or 20mph.... In general I would guess that I sit up at 12mph or less if it feels like light winds... When riding a loop course I will actually plan my sit up rests on the tailwind/crosswind legs to save the time penalty.... Likewise if possible I plan my pee breaks on downhills and downwind sections due to the need to stop pedaling :-)
Thanks for this helpful information @Scott Giljum , @tim cronk and @Mike Roberts! Would the speed benefit of kicking during the swim be worthwhile in an olympic distance triathlon? I agree kicking elevates your HR and is more taxing, but if you are only racing for ~2-2.25 hours, then maybe that is ok? I've read that even for elite swimmers, there speed gains from kicking are only in the ballpark of ~15%, so my impression is that it does not add a ton of speed. But maybe in a short course race it is worth it?
Thanks for asking these questions @desutherland !
Thanks!
-Rob
I'm a big dood (6'1" @ 210lbs), with a 50-34 compact/11-28 cassette on my road bike and a 50-34 compact/12-27 cassette on my tri bike. There's pretty much no way to not exceed my goal watts when climbing any hill at all. Gravity always wins!
However, where I differ from most of my peers, is that I TRAIN to ride lower RPMs to enable me to not exceed my FTP by too much. If I can get my fatass up a hill at less than FTP, even if it just requires an abnormally low-cadence, anyone can! Not to mention that's some pretty solid strength work that translates once you hit the flats again. YMMV.
If you can afford the additional gears, go for it - it's undoubtedly more efficient. I'm a pedal "grinder" by nature, with freakishly-low cadences compared to my peeps. I've been trying to teach myself the higher cadence more and more, but it doesn't work as well for me, it seems.
NOTE: People with knee issues should NOT be doing this, it's too much strain!
Just my $.02.