Marathon Training Plan assist

NavyTriGuy

Looking for some guidance for a plan to ramp me up for a spring marathon. Can't be much longer than 12 weeks because that's all the time I have until my proposed race!

Ran a PR 3:35 (actually a 3:32) at Marine Corps in Oct of 08. That was coming off of IMLP fitness and building on that. Now I'm coming off of  IMFL fitness and looking to carry that into a spring time race. Used a Runner's World plan last time. That plan had me running 5x per week and peaked out at about 55 miles/week. This time I'm thinking about trying the F.I.R.S.T. model which is run 3x/week and XT 2x/week (much more tri friendly). Plus, the F.I.R.S.T. uses a lot of high intensity intervals vice a lot of LSD which is more my (our) speed.

In any case, I'm looking to go from my 3:32 to :15 IOT try to qualify for Boston. A tall order, I know, but I'll know by race day whether that time goal is attainable or not. If it is, I'll go for it, if I don't have the necessary fitness by then, I'll just shoot for a PR!</p>

Thanks for any possible feedback.

mgraffeo

James,

you may have seen my rants about the FIRST plan in other posts.  I want to try to provide some constructive, non-biased info for you to evaluate.  There's a couple of things that I'd want to point out to someone looking at the plan.

1. it is not designed to make you faster.  It will build your far at a given level of fast, but there's too much work being done to appreciably increase your speed.  If you don't have the speed to hit the benchmarks entering the plan (for a 3:15, they say you need to do a 5k in 20:05, a 10k in 42:00, or a half marathon is 1:33:30, with the half marathon being the best predictor), you aren't going to get there.
2. IMHO, it is an "eggs against the wall" plan.  There's a lot of intensity, and I personally don't think that the fatigue is well-managed.  If you can handle it, you'll probably do well.  If not, you'll crack.
3. It's a 16 week plan, and there's 5 20-milers in the plan.  The first 4 weeks long runs are 13, 15, 17, 20.  Not for the faint of heart.

As I've said elsewhere, the plan is likely effective, but I think that there are better ways to get ready for a marathon.  When I did the plan, I cracked about a month out from the race, stood down for about two weeks, and then was in the taper period.  Needless to say, I had a less-than-optimal day.

Mike

mancona

FWIW, I'm also going to try my first spring marathon this year.  My situation is a little different as I am not focusing on the marathon and not shooting for a big PR (a small one would be nice though).

Since IM is still my A race, I am going to follow the EN OS plan plus add a long run.  I'm basically thinking for the 12 weeks prior to the marathon I am just going to add an EN style long run on sundays.  Maybe start at 1:30 with some good MP work and work my way up to 2:20 with 2 x 20 at MP.

I'll let you know how it worked for me in April, but figured I would share my plan.

NavyTriGuy

Posted By Michael Graffeo on 24 Nov 2009 09:02 AM

James,

you may have seen my rants about the FIRST plan in other posts.  I want to try to provide some constructive, non-biased info for you to evaluate.  There's a couple of things that I'd want to point out to someone looking at the plan.

1. it is not designed to make you faster.  It will build your far at a given level of fast, but there's too much work being done to appreciably increase your speed.  If you don't have the speed to hit the benchmarks entering the plan (for a 3:15, they say you need to do a 5k in 20:05, a 10k in 42:00, or a half marathon is 1:33:30, with the half marathon being the best predictor), you aren't going to get there.
2. IMHO, it is an "eggs against the wall" plan.  There's a lot of intensity, and I personally don't think that the fatigue is well-managed.  If you can handle it, you'll probably do well.  If not, you'll crack.
3. It's a 16 week plan, and there's 5 20-milers in the plan.  The first 4 weeks long runs are 13, 15, 17, 20.  Not for the faint of heart.

As I've said elsewhere, the plan is likely effective, but I think that there are better ways to get ready for a marathon.  When I did the plan, I cracked about a month out from the race, stood down for about two weeks, and then was in the taper period.  Needless to say, I had a less-than-optimal day.

Mike

 

Great feedback on the FIRST plan Mike, very much appreciated.

I didn't see a lot of speedwork ini the first few weeks, so I was wondering how to build up some fast before piling on the far. My PR for open half mary is 1:35 and it was the half on the same course as the full I am thinking of doing (ie, similar terrain). I'd say I currently don't have ~quite~ the benchmarks for a 3:15, but I'm hopefuly that I can get there, or pretty close. I usually manage intensity pretty well, but I may not really want to go out that far on a limb simply for a marathon. Thanks again.

NavyTriGuy

Posted By mancona (aka Matt Ancona) on 24 Nov 2009 09:18 AM

FWIW, I'm also going to try my first spring marathon this year.  My situation is a little different as I am not focusing on the marathon and not shooting for a big PR (a small one would be nice though).

Since IM is still my A race, I am going to follow the EN OS plan plus add a long run.  I'm basically thinking for the 12 weeks prior to the marathon I am just going to add an EN style long run on sundays.  Maybe start at 1:30 with some good MP work and work my way up to 2:20 with 2 x 20 at MP.

I'll let you know how it worked for me in April, but figured I would share my plan.

LOL Matt, but then again, I don't have a 63 VDOT! In any case, your idea sounds great. Problem for me is that I can't start the OS plan that far out so I may have to do a straight stick marathon plan and throw in some extra Cross Training.

 

 

Peter Carroll

I just joined and have broken the 'no winter marathon rule' already (actually in 2 weeks), but I have been using the beginner FIRST program and it only has 1-20 miler and has been very manageable. I've increased my 1/2 marathon from a 1:48 to a 1:37. I think the key is hitting the proper paces on the Tues/Thurs workouts. Of course, I have to say that I hadn't done any speed work while training for the 1st 1/2 marathon. So, any speed work probably would have helped. I found it really nice not to have to run 5 or 6 days a week. The bike was a nice change of pace between runs.

-Peter

Coach Patrick

James and group, solid stuff here. As with any plan, your personal mileage will vary. Given you lofty goals, JAmes, I would do the following:

Determine proper vDOT for a 3:15 marathon. Understand that a 52 vDOT, earned in a 5k, for example, is really a 54 or 55 on the day (unless you are endurance monster), so if the 3:!5 vDOT is 55, you'll probably need to earn a 57 in a 5k test. FYI making those numbers up.

I would then spend first half of your season, say Dec and January, working solely on moving that 5k benchmark. Intervals, repeats, hard work, nothing longer than 1 hour, and that maybe only 2x per week. Running 5x week with one of those being a brick off an interval bike (yes, keep biking). Every other week you can extend weekend run to 90', but make the first 30' very easy then finish with last hour being similar to work from previous weeks. Week 4 and Week 8 you test on the Tuesday after a monday off.

At the end of those 8 weeks, we can re-evaluate where you are as we decide to start adding far.

Go ahead an put up your basic week / training plan and we can start hacking at it!

P

NavyTriGuy

Posted By Patrick McCrann on 27 Nov 2009 01:54 PM

James and group, solid stuff here. As with any plan, your personal mileage will vary. Given you lofty goals, JAmes, I would do the following:

Determine proper vDOT for a 3:15 marathon. Understand that a 52 vDOT, earned in a 5k, for example, is really a 54 or 55 on the day (unless you are endurance monster), so if the 3:!5 vDOT is 55, you'll probably need to earn a 57 in a 5k test. FYI making those numbers up.

I would then spend first half of your season, say Dec and January, working solely on moving that 5k benchmark. Intervals, repeats, hard work, nothing longer than 1 hour, and that maybe only 2x per week. Running 5x week with one of those being a brick off an interval bike (yes, keep biking). Every other week you can extend weekend run to 90', but make the first 30' very easy then finish with last hour being similar to work from previous weeks. Week 4 and Week 8 you test on the Tuesday after a monday off.

At the end of those 8 weeks, we can re-evaluate where you are as we decide to start adding far.

Go ahead an put up your basic week / training plan and we can start hacking at it!

P

Coach P et al:

VDOT for 3:14:06 marathon is 49 (my current VDOT is 49). By your advice, I'd need to earn a 51-52 prior to race day to see if a 3:15 is realistic given my race day fitness. From where I sit (with my current tested VDOT of 49) I'd like to think that I can improve my VDOT two points to get the requisite race day fitness. And if not, I can still run the race and set a new PR...hopefully.

Your approach sounds good. I like it because it I can still XT and work on tri fitness all the while working towards a goal. I ~may~ or ~may not~ be able to reach the goal, but heck, I can have fun trying. I may throw one more day of EZ running in because my pool is shut down and I can't swim.

Here's my idea for my first 6/12 wks. Two days of tempo or track intervals, two days of easy running, one "longer" day and a brick off the bike. Testing at weeks 3 and 6 (because I have about 12 weeks from my proposed race)

1. EZ 4/3x1.5 Tempo/EZ 8/Track 800s (6)/Rest Day/LR 10 (10% slower than MP)/Bike/Brick 3-4 (35 miles)

2. EZ 5/2x2 Tempo/EZ 8/Track 800s (6)/Rest Day/Progression run (13)/Bike Brick 3 (40 miles)

3.5k Test Run/4 Tempo/EZ 10/Track 800s (6)/Rest Day/Steady LR (10)/Bike/Brick 3 (42 miles)

4. EZ 5/3x2 @ HMP/EZ 10/Track 800s (7)/Rest Day/Progresstion run/13/Bike Brick 4 (35 miles)

5. EZ 7/3x2 @ HMP/EZ8/Track 800s (7)/Rest Day/Progression run (15)/Bike Brick 4 (45 miles)

6. EZ 4/3x2@ HMP/EZ 7/Track 800s (8)/Rest Day/10k race (VDOT Test)/Bike Brick (40 miles)

 

 

NavyTriGuy

Plan B would be to plan for a March marathon vice February. This would give me 16 weeks to train vice 12 and allow me more time to build "fast" before far (per Coach P's guidance). I found a suitable race too...the Shamrock Marathon on 21 March in Va Beach. Has potential...

NavyTriGuy

Bump.

I'm strongly considering March 21 mary vice Feb 21 to give me 16 weeks vice 12 weeks to prep for an all out BQ assault!

mgraffeo

More time till race = more time to get faster.  I think that the 12 week "build your far" is probably plenty, but the advantage of the March race is that you could build your fast a little faster before putting far on top of it.

Rememeber, you can run a pretty good Half off of just OS training (see race reports from last Feb / March), so it's not like you need to start your "build your far" at 6-8 miles.  Your first long run would probably be in the 10-12 range.  12 weeks should be enough time to hit a 20 and taper.

Mike

NavyTriGuy

Posted By Michael Graffeo on 03 Dec 2009 04:27 PM

More time till race = more time to get faster.  I think that the 12 week "build your far" is probably plenty, but the advantage of the March race is that you could build your fast a little faster before putting far on top of it.

Rememeber, you can run a pretty good Half off of just OS training (see race reports from last Feb / March), so it's not like you need to start your "build your far" at 6-8 miles.  Your first long run would probably be in the 10-12 range.  12 weeks should be enough time to hit a 20 and taper.

Mike

 

Thanks for your input Mike. Much appreciated.

Agree that 12 weeks would be enough to build far but 16 weeks gives me time to build some extra fast THEN go far.

LOL I was one of the knuckleheads who ran an open 1/2 while in the middle of the OS. No run specific training yet ran a 10+ minute PR...not too shabby for no "training"! So I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with building off of IM base fitness coupled with marathon targeted training.

schnecks5

Mardi gras marathon is in 12 weeks, it is snowing pretty hard here so long outside runs aren't a real possibility , though snow shoeing and skiing (skate skiing) are... Last year I trained for the Jan 17th marathon in Georgia just running once a week and skiing and snowshoeing the other 3 days of what would have been a marathong training program.  Not looking for a speedy run-my PR is 3:45, did a 3:55 in September.  Looking for advice on how to add distance to the plan without taking away from the speed training.  Before the snow and before I hopped on this OS plan I was getting about 15miles a week in-just kind of in a maintance phase.

Thanks

Sheryl

Coach Patrick

I think you'll want to do 2 indoor interval sessions a week (like the OS runs), and then use the X training to make the rest interesting, endurance oriented and fun. Think Tues / Thurs HARD, Wed/Sat/Sun longer...

Patrick

jo_cobble

Okay, so Fargo Marathon May 22 - - do I just stay on the outseason plan or change the running part now??

bker61

I just took an entry spot into the Boston marathon through the Mass State Police, so I need to get together a plan that will supplement the November Out Season Intermediate plan.

Anyone have any suggestions?