tubular worth it for race day?
Here's the scoop. I'm racing on my powertap rear wheel with a disc cover on race day. Clincher setup. Very comfortable with it.
I have an opportunity to pick up a used 808 front for a very nice price. Only issue is that it's tubular (just figured that out after inquiring with the buyer). I've never used a tubular.
1) is it a big deal to run a tubular in front and clincher on the rear for race day (and a few training days)?
2) for those who've made the switch to tubular, what would the words of wisdom be?
Thanks for your help!
Mike
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Comments
I ran tubulars when I did my IM (Zipp 404's). I loved them but they had no PT. Sold them after I bought my PT. I considered keeping the front for racing but decidied against running both because of the issue with needing two different spares.
I sold my tubie Zipp 404s because I couldn't stand the extra mental anguish I took on being worried about flatting on the darn things. You'll have to carry a spare tire (not cheap) which isn't all that easy to "hide" on the bike (maybe if you are a big guy it's easier, but strapping a tubie to the back of a 46 size frame is not a fun task). I just didn't ride on the tubies that often to get used to changing the tire if I got a flat, so I was never very confident that I'd be able to do it if I had to. Yes- I carried pre-stretched, pre-taped/glued tubes, but that wasn't gonna help me get the flat tire off the rim! I also carried Vittoria Flat fix stuff that I hoped would work as well. In the end- all of that was just extra added weight and mental garbage that wasn't worth whatever rolling resistance the tubies might have offered me. I used to feel like a wimp about that decision until I read Todd Kenyon's (TTbikefit) blog post about how he decided to ditch the tubulars.
That said- lots of folks who love their tubies. Roadies in particular just love them- but then again, they don't have to race 112 miles totally self supported without a wheel truck following them all that often.
The real issue I see for you is that riding with both is gonna mean carrying both a spare tubular and a spare tube for the clincher. Yet more extra crap. Eh, doesn't sound worth it to me.
I might add that I would not go back to tubies for all the reasons that Nemo brought up.
Mike,
I've never owned a tublar so I probably should not even be writing anything here. For me I have decided to stay away from tubular's for many of the reasons Nemo metioned. Beyond that I think it comes to the amount of time and space I have. My wife and I live in a smaller condo so not a lot of room to do bike repair/maintenance.
On the effort side I considered the following; Do I want to spend the time to put two or three layers of glue on the rim and one on the tire? NO!. Plus upkeep removing old glue on the rim. NO! It just came down to me not wanting to invest my time in this and yes I spent time to learn about my powertap.
Also if I was to switch I would want to train a lot on the 808 so that I could change a flat and have done it at least a couple times.
I would not consider running a tubie and a clincher but it can be done.
If I recall the crr list the tubulars had the top 4 or 6 tires, but you can find clinchers very close to that so I'd go for ease changing, and maintenance.
Finally and this is a big one for me. I also did not like the fact that after flatting you have to remain more aware of conering as the pre-glued tire is not on the rim as well. Typically at an IM I am not familar with the course. If I go in to a corner to hot that tubie could roll off the rim. What if I flatted at mile 5 in Lake Placid in 2004. I'm sure I would not have been going 48MPH on the decent in to Keene. Maybe I am just overexaggerating this risk but it's one I was not willing to take. There are probably 5 others that I was willing to take on that are worse.
Gordon
I know that Chrig G has a table somewhere that compares the rolling resistances of all tires. As I recall, tubulars weren't all that. Also:
Here is the link ... many of good clinchers to choose from.
Remeber if you do not glue a tubular perfectly, you will not get the optimal rolling resistance... a clincher is either on or not, no messing with the right amonut of glue.
http://www.biketechreview.com/tires...g_rev9.pdf
My original zipps were tubbies. I thought the process of gluing them was kinda cool although I was a bit scared of rolling one off the rim. They were super light for what that is worth. A clincher 808 is not light. It does not matter. A spare tubbie is huge as has been mentioned. People are always saying that it is easy to change one, they can do it faster than a clincher, you can ride it flat blah blah blah.
My n=1. I got a kinda sorta flat with my tubbies [big pothole lost air with crappy zipp extender]. As the season was over I thought I would take the oppurtunity to see how fast I could change it when I got home. Could not get it off at all ala Norman in the lava fields. Could not pry it off. Took about 20 minutes to get the thing off using all the tools in my basement. Not something I would want to do on the side of the road. Oh and that "just take a razor and cut it off thing", ever try it? I has been challenging people of slowtwitch to post a video of someone doing it for years and had zero takers. Think you can? I will mail you a spare to try it with or bring one to the EN rally in LP. I sure can't.
As for one of each? I considered it briefly when I got a PT. The carrying stuff to change each is a nightmare. Ended up with clincher PT 808's. Much better for racing IMO.
I have been considering buying a set of 404ish tubbies for my road bike but that is just cause I am a bit of a jackass and like to buy stuff. YMMV.
Mike, I will lend you my front 808 for LP. It has raced the last 2 years, only once on my bike. It has never been part more than an 11 hour day, lets keep it that way.
Having said all that, if I were starting over purchasing race wheels I'd look long and hard at the clincher options out there; there are some VERY fast clincher tires on the market now. It's telling that Andy Coggan races track on clinchers.
Chris, I think I'll take you up on that offer. Maybe I can add "keeping Chris's sub-11 wheel streak alive" to my list of one things.
Mike
I just received my 404/808 clincher combo a few days ago, and just hit "submit" on my wheelcover order from wheelbuilder.com (a nice big EN sticker to adorn it too).
I'll still use the carbon tubies for short races, where it's no big deal to flat out/DNF if I cannot refill with the fix-a-flat, or change the tube. I've already made the investment in the resources, so I might as well use them!
The Zipp reps I talked to a few months ago were really excited about the new 101 and firecrest rims as they felt that the wider rim width combined with their clincher tire (which is made by vittoria in the same factory and with the same materials as the CXs I ride) offered ride quality and performance that was on par with tubulars. They also "claim" the wider rim creates less rolling resistance, but I have yet to see any data to back this up.
Sorry for the rambling but the point is the tubie vs clincher ride quality/ rolling resistance are getting closer and closer every day. Which ever way you go just make sure to invest in good tires/tubes.
If I were buying race wheels now, I would more than likely get clinchers. The rolling resistance and weight differences are really quite minimal now. It just simplifies equipment inventory.
Vince
I was able to see a firecrest wheel and talk with a zipp rep about them. They are very impressive for a few other reasons as well:
-New rim shape that tests better across a wider range or yaw angles, and is actually more aero than the current tubie 404. (in the past all aero numbers Zipp posted were for tubies running 20 or 21 tires and the clinchers are not as aero in most cases unless you are running a 19 or 20 tire).
-Wider rim for less chance of a pinch flat, better tire shape, better tire to rim transistion. Many "claim" this provides a better ride and lower rolling ressistance as well. This allows you to get the aero benefits and still ride a 23c tire.
All that said, to me extra $500 over standard 404 clinchers, is not worth it. Also, other firecrest wheels are already being made and are likely to be available this year so if anyone is looking for carbon clinchers it may be worth waiting a little longer.
@Vince or anyone else reading this sooner. I will be going with latex tubes for the first time at IMC. What's the talc powder for?
Gordon
@Matt: I am unfamiliar with the term "firecrest". Thanks for the info. I will look that term up.
Vince
Firecrest is the code name zipp used for the carbon clincher project. If you look in the 2010 catalog they have pictures of firecrest wheels being tested in the wind tunnel.
I've heard to explainations of the term: 1) the new carbon layup/materials they use so the the carbon clinchers can withstand the heat from braking and 2) the new rim profile.
"Its Firecrest™ rim shape is the first deep-profile carbon clincher design to offer the superior aerodynamics, ride quality, strength, and handling of a wider rim body."
"Heavy, continuous braking on carbon surfaces can cause spikes in rim temperature, and clincher tires are more susceptible to the effects than tubulars are. To solve this challenge, chemists and engineers from our composites supplier made repeated visits to Zipp's R&D lab to test and refine a new heat-resistant resin based on the materials used in motorsports brake systems. Available solely to Zipp, this new technology resists heat for more consistent braking performance and tire pressure on long descents."
V
Triathletes love to spent money on the newest fastest thing, so if Zipp can continue to make changes that make a few seconds of a difference people will buy them... and then sit up in during the ride because they arn't fit correctly ;-)
sounds like a plan!
I'm still going to use my superlight tubies for my 8-mile TT next week. I'll carry pit stop with me to inflate on the fly if I need to. If it doesn't work, then it's no big deal to DNF for me on that one.
@Scott I thought you were racing an OLY?
Vince
Vince
I completely spaced out and forgot to post this the other day, but right after I read this thread I was out riding on Friday morning and flatted on my HED Stinger tubies. These are my race wheels only but I raced last weekend and race again next weekend so had just left them on. I first tried using VIttoria pit stop since I had been carrying a can with me forever and wanted to see if it actually worked. There was a pretty sizable hole and the pitstop failed to plug it, so I pulled out the safety razor I had been carrying for just such an occasion after hearing this advice many times.
I was actually shocked at how easy it was and well it worked. Yes, this is n=1, but I cut right through the tire, stuck my finger in it like a hose and it ripped right off. This was incredibly less frustrating than the last time I pulled a tubie, although on the downside this way completely destroys the tire of course.
Even so, I still dislike tubulars and wish I had gotten a clincher set knowing what I do now, *but* I have my Stingers because I got a killer deal on them and my first flat change out in the field on them actually went much better than I had been dreading, minus fooling around with the pit stop. I have a lot more confidence in my ability to change a tubie on raceday now.