Ha! Awesome @John Withrow ! Glad to hear you are interested! I can understand why you might retire from triathlon & not attend Al camp next year. None-the-less, I sure hope your 2020 plans involve Al camp! I think Everesting would be an awesome non-triathlon fitness challenge for post-triathlon life.
I also thought Castle Creek would be great from a low traffic standpoint, but I also concluded that it wasn't steep enough. Good points of caution on Maroon Creek.
That Catherine climb may be a good option! I don't remember a lot about it, but I don't think there was too much traffic.
I love the idea of being on independence pass, but you are probably right about wanting to have all the O2 we can get (i.e., staying at lower altitude). I like the partial IP idea, but I'm concerned that would not qualify as an official "Everest" according to these rules (and why not get our names in some record book if we are going to do it?):
"Rides must be full ascents each time (Strava segments or the accepted ‘traditional’ climbing route will generally be the best guide for this. You can’t commit to a combination of full and half laps). Acceptable is a shorter segment of a climb if it is recognized in its own right. If in doubt, ask."
If this was a finalist, I could ask them if it qualifies.
Here is a strava segment that matches what you described for the lower half of IP. And it does level off to ~1.1% briefly at the top of this segment, so they might allow it:
Thanks for that input @Al Truscott ! I love the fact that Frying Pan has low traffic and beautiful scenery. I think I recall the pavement being pretty good quality too.
Using existing strava segments, here are the numbers using Everest Calculator for the 1) climb out of catherine, 2) frying pan Ruedi climb (includes the steep spot before the damn to where that climb tops out), and 3) the segment I think Al is describing (called "Reudi climb to the dam" on Strava):
@scott dinhofer has some good options near his Ludlow place that have not yet been Everested: Brandon Gap (20 laps, ~338+ km total ride distance, ~4.1%) and the top of Middlebury Gap (44 laps, ~240+ km total ride distance, ~7.3%). My recollection was that traffic was minimal on both climbs on a Friday morning. And these are at low elevation, which helps a lot.
The Blue Triangles show the climbs that have already been everested. Appalachian Gap has already been "taken" (one of the blue triangles at the top of the Green Mtn Forest). App Gap was one of the prettier of the 6 gaps, but it did have more tight turns and was a steeper climb (at least the side I rode up). I rode Brandon & Middlebury this summer and they don't have a lot of tight corners, which is obviously good for the descents. The other side of Brandon gap was being repaved this summer too, but I haven't looked at how steep that is.
Does this interest you @scott dinhofer ? I don't think this would be a good idea to do shortly before France Camp...
Maybe I'm being a bit premature, but this is something fun to think about while I can't train....
@Larry Peters a "partial" ascent of any of the climbs WOULD count as an official "Everest". But I think you'd need to make the Strava segment well ahead of time and just do repeats of that particular segment. I'd even go as far as painting a stripe on the road where it starts and ends and keep a white board either at the top or the bottom where you can tick off the number you have done to keep track.
I think the idea of doing this at altitude without having at least acclimated for one week, and ideally a three weeks is stupider than stupid.. It may be THE stupidest withrow trick ever... doing this at Sea Levelish oxygenated air is hard enough. Ask @tim cronk - I have no doubts that Tim prepared, analyzed and gave this more thought than all of the people on this thread combined, and HE failed.
I think the right road to do this on in my area of Vermont is the Okemo mountain road from the ski lodge to the parking area at the top (end of paved road) gets you 3.2 miles 1776' of climbing at 10.6% average, for 16.35 trips up to accomplish the goal with minimal traffic. Can of course, make this shorter for more breaks as the whole road is typically 9.5-12% all the way up. The key is having eliminated that ass kicker from town up to the ski lodge.
I agree that I may have initially underestimated the magnitude of this challenge @scott dinhofer (and I may still be underestimating it). None-the-less, I am interested in it.
I like how little traffic Okemo has, but I think the 10.6% average grade makes it a lot harder than it could be. Also, the descent is fairly winding if I remember correctly. I could be convinced otherwise, but at this point, I'd prefer something less steep.
@Larry Peters ...Rob (and anyone else following along), let me be frank as usual, and then encouraging, as usual.
First off, I think the whole concept of Everesting as it is formally structured online is...well, I don't know the correct adjective, but it;s not something I am personally interested in doing. Not because it's hard, but for two other reasons: it's way more consecutive hours in the saddle than I find entertaining/fun and (worse) you are doing the same route over and over many multiple times - BORING!
When I thought about doing it for a brief moment a few years ago, I looked at places to try, and realised - Hey, maybe there's a junior version of this, and maybe I can do a cool thing, like do a "Rainier" (14,410') on Rainier! Ride up and down one of the roads I like on Mt Rainier, repetitively, and do half an "Everest" or so. It could all be done in the daylight, for one thing. Maybe to make it challenging, it would have to be in 12 hours.
So, as you progress towards completing your Everest (someday), maybe think about preparing for it by doing, say, Rainier on Rainier, or a Whitney (14,495') on Mt Whitney, or an Elbert (14,435') on Mt Elbert (between Leadville and Independence Pass - it would have to be on a mountain bike). Or even an Independence (12,090') on Independence - like the last 1.5 miles past the final hairpin.
You might even find yourself creating a new challenge - being the progenitor of a new multi-state challenge to do an Everest-like effort on multiple mountains in many states, riding up the roads which flank them, achieving the cumulative height of the mountain on which you are actually riding. A Mitchell on Mt Mitchell (North Carolina). A Washington on Mt. Washington. Let those damned Everest'ers try and do that!
Or, you could help me form an EN team to do this in 2021:
Come to Colorado for a couple of weeks to acclimate (including Al T'tude Bad Ass Camp), motor to my sister's place in Encinitas (near the start), pick up Matt Limbert (he lives a mile from my sister), and head back to Colorado on bikes. I'll have my mini-RV for support by then. It would be much less boring than an Everest, and probably just as cool bragging rights.
@Al Truscott , thanks for the insights and encouragement!
1) I love the idea of "Rainier on Rainier" and "IP on IP," and "Whitney and Whitney." I think I'd have to get a new MTB and spend more (more than zero!) time MTB to consider Elbert on Elbert, but I love the sound of that too. Maybe IP on IP will be a better challenge at Al camp next year? We'll see how motivated others are to try and Everest.
2) I love the sound of EN RAW 2021! I'm totally down! That sounds like a monster challenge in beautiful scenery. Great way to get some good miles out of your new camper too. Its funny how people are always at least a year ahead of the announcements of EN key races :) (here might be another example). And I LOL'd at your "Just don't tell me we oughta do RAAM first...."
I tested out the legs on the most famous local climb with the thought that I would like to Everest on bike sometime in the next 6 months. I've only been back to cycling for about 6 weeks after 9 weeks off from accident, sprained foot and clavicle surgery. I was very pleased with how well this went. This climb is not the ideal everest climb (I did scout for some more ideal local climbs last weekend and found some). Downsides to everesting this climb: it is very short and kinda steep with a few bad potholes on the descent (0.24 miles and about 116 feet of gain). But on the bright side it is a dead-end "road" (a driveway for a back entrance to the local zoo, actually) near my house with no cars at all for the night (they lock cars out with a gate at the bottom of the climb) and limited traffic during the day. It is a somewhat iconic climb in the local community and 40 repeats and 50 repeats is a guaranteed strava segment trophy (because less than 10 people have completed it). It is also shaded and in a forest, so the scenery is nice (but I did worry about hitting animals on the descent, especially deer at night). There are bathrooms and water not far away and there is a 24 hour cafe a subway and a McDonalds within 1 mile too. I rode 47 repeats on this climb last December, so I had a warm, fuzzy feeling going back to it and definitely had familiarity.
On this test run yesterday, I included the flat parking loop at the top, which is part of the 30, 40 and 50 repeat strava segment, but not part of the 5, 10 and 20 repeat segment. I realized from this test that I'll gain elevation a lot faster if I just turn around when it flattens out and skip this flat part at the top during each lap (but I kept doing the loop because I want to make new strava segements from my ride and I wanted every lap to be the same route). If I Everest this, I'll skip the flat part.
I also experienced problems with the edge 520+ battery running low as @tim cronk mentioned above, so need to consider that for a full attempt.
Anyway, I rode my bike to/from the climb 6 miles each way (stashed a drop bag there the night before & brought another one the morning of) and racked up ~21,111 feet of gain in 117 miles with 174 repeats, 11hr26min moving time, 12:44 total time (keeping all my eating and bathroom breaks so short on such a long hard day is amazing for me! I didn't have to poop once!). I was really lucky a local friend came and rode with me for a couple hours and refilled some bottles.
I finished feeling really good like I could have kept climbing. I even pushed the 2nd to last climb to test the legs. So I definitely want to try to a full Everest at some point in the next 6 months. I had -28 TSB to start the day and was feeling a little worn out the day before (but I think my FTP is a bit low, so that number is probably a bit artificially low). I also pushed harder than I normally would the first 30 repeats to get a top 10 strava trophy for the 30 repeat segment. I knew that might jeopardize my goal for the day, but I went for it anyway, got 9th place by only 45 seconds and still met my stretch goal of 20k total climbing. But after the adrenaline wore off at home, my knees were pretty tight and I did have some dull soreness in my tendons. Then I thought about the fact that I would probably need to start around midnight the night before and realized that the leap from 21k to 29k is probably quite significant. I was thinking 1 more month of serious training should make it pretty attainable. But by then Michigan weather may mean that there is a risk of ice forming on the road at night and the days will be quite short (not to mention being out for 16-24 hours in 35-45 degree weather sounds less enjoyable to me). So I may have to wait until Christmas break (visiting family in Sonoma County CA and Austin, TX) or next summer.
Thanks for the continued inspiration and mentorship team!
With the help of @Patricia Rosen , I think I found a great segment/climb in Austin, TX to consider for an Everest attempt in early January. I'll be in Austin for ~2.5 weeks staying with my brother and SIL. They live right in the same neighborhood as Patti and in the same neighborhood as this climb! I figure I can spend a day training on it early in my trip, recover with a mini-taper and then go for it toward the end of my trip. More planning to come, but for now...I'm excited.
Low traffic, good grade, near my brother's house and no one has done it according to Hells500 records...I'm excited.
@Larry Peters - rob as you mentioned on the group me, you will be challenged by availability of daylight this time of year. While you stated that you believe you will know all the issues with the road as you roll into nightfall, i would argue that you will become more and more fatigued and brain fatigued as well. I'd be very concerned about availability of street lighting and what you are using on the bike.
I do nightride gravel with a group of guys all winter. I use something like this on my bars with a 750 helmet light that goes whereever I aim it.. Lights up the night unbelievably.
If you can give me address where you are staying in Austin, I can lend/ship to you right before your attempt if you get it back to me day after... as this will be during my riding season..
@scott dinhofer thanks a ton for the thoughtful reply and generous offer to loan me your light!!
My plan would be to start at night so that I am more fresh and alert when riding in the dark. I would try to start early enough (thinking around midnight or 1 am, but need to refine that plan after doing a day of training on the selected climb) so that I would finish before sunset the next day. Also, the days won’t be as short in Texas as they are in Michigan, so that should help a bit.
I agree lighting is critical. I currently have three bright headlights (~300-500 lumen each). But I was planning on investing in another (possibly) brighter light (With longer battery life) as part of this attempt. Wow, the light you have has some great specs, but is a major investment too. So your offer to borrow that light might be perfect. Thanks!
I won’t be going to texas until 12/25. I will see what kind of deals there are on lights when Black Friday weekend rolls around. If I don’t end up buying a light, I would love to borrow yours, and would certainly mail it back immediately.
@Larry Peters - i think mine is only 1600 lumens :-), it's "like" that one in setup
"the days won’t be as short in Texas as they are in Michigan" - they are going to be shorter than you think and not that much longer than in MI, maybe only 20-30 mins..
Ok, cool. Thanks @scott dinhofer ! Yeah, good point. I thought the difference between daylight hours in Texas and Michigan would be greater. But the extra 20-30 minutes won't hurt. We'll see how a training day on my potential hill goes. Then I'll think about timing and whether or not it is better to wait until spring or summer.
@Larry Peters Rob - Since your first cycling century was up Fryingpan Road to 9300', 6000 of climbing total, and your first 200+ ride was that Withrow Hell on Wheels Special over Independence and Tennessee passes, then into the wind down the Colorado, I suppose I should just say, "Go For It." Even though I think the best time to attempt an Everest would be the week after you get back from France - longest days of the year, head Up North to make them longer, you'll be doubly pumped from your time at altitude in CO, then your days in Les Alps getting strong like mountain goat. Just don't crash, man.
Ha ha ha, thanks @Al Truscott ! Yes, I agree the longer days are an important factor, and of course, crashing is my biggest hesitation. But for some reason, I'm kinda interested in doing it more than once. You get to "tag" the climb when you are the first person to do it on the Everesting map/records.
So it appeals to me in some of the ways that segment hunting does: "stamping" my name on a little part of endurance history (but no one can steal this record back). And I figure doing it once at sea level would be a good test to see if I could consider doing it at higher altitude in CO and/or on a harder climb elsewhere. As you may recall, there was some interest as making an Everesting attempt the "big day" at Al camp this year. If I enjoy it (in the crazy way that we enjoy these things we do), I will probably also want to do it in Michigan this summer to "claim" one of my local hills (no one has claimed any in my town yet). The shorter days coming is also a big incentive to get my W/kg as high as possible by early January (if I attempt it then). The faster I can climb, the less hours riding in the darkness needed. If I do go for it, I'll be certain to have all the brightest lights possible completely lighting up the road, and I'll avoid looking up at any fireworks. I also plan to descend slowly (and ride the brakes) in the hours around dawn in the event that a deer runs out at just the wrong time.
You got me intrigued so I looked at my biggest local climb. It has 440 m of elevation and takes me 45 min to ride it. Everest has over 8500 m of climb so I would be climbing that climb about 21 times. The most I have made it is 3 times so far and it is in a park that is only open 12 hours so I am thinking that this challenge might not be for me after all.
I may just stick with a "knight of Sufferlandria" at 10 hours
So cool to see this thread revived. Its still on my back burner and wanna get back to it. Also interested in an Everest on foot. Not sure when either may happen.
@Larry Peters for me personally the ride is hard enough actually it was too hard lol, but my theory was I need to eliminate anything that may make it even harder, those were daylight hrs available, weather , altitude, and the right route choice... I wanted my attempt as close to the longest day of the year to maximize daylight... Comfortable day and night temps, with no precip and light winds... grades - 5-6 degrees works for me , any less and your not racking up much vert , once I go 7-8 degrees its more stressing on my lower back and need more gears... Route length is a something to consider as well, its nice to get descending breaks every 30' ... lots of these are personal choices and can certainly be overcome... Ray Brown an ex ENer has done a bunch of these in all kinds of conditions, but he is much tougher than I. Totally agree that if your going to do this it needs to be on a first ascent hill so you get credit and live in infamy :-)
Thanks a ton for the feedback @tim cronk ! I'm pretty sure I"m going to attempt a virtual Everest starting early Sunday 12/1 (around 2 am). We'll see how that goes. 9 trips of Alpe du Zwift if anyone wants to jump in. I originally told a few people I would start Saturday 11/30 ~2 am (i.e., late Friday night), but at this point, I'm planning to push it back 1 day. Feel free to ride up AdZ a bit with me Sunday if you are free and interested. I figure this will be another good way to test the water for a full outdoor everest attempt.
Well, I tried and failed at the virtual everest. I went with an 11:11 PM start time because I wanted to better simulate what might be required for an outdoor everest (everyone on everesting FB page says virtual everest is hours shorter than outdoor everest). And I planned to ride further into sunday, again as a better test for the time required for a potential outdoor everest.
My immediate feeling in the 24 hours that followed is that I don't ever want to do an event that goes through the night again. It was awful. But I think a big part of that was that I think I developed hyponatremia from drinking too much water and not taking my sodium tablets every hour, like I normally do. I got really ill and started vomiting. Twice when I knealt down to vomit into a bucket, I woke up passed out on the floor. So I had to call it quits. I got up the Alpe 6 times (on discord, I said I was on my 7th lap, but I must've been delusional or mis-counted). I also fueled the first 3-4 hours on liquids/blocks only. Normally I use more solid food, but I wanted to see if I could use less solid food with hopes that would require less bathroom breaks later in the event (forecasting to an ironman, I am still trying to figure out if I can go 10.5-12 hours without pooping. I think I've only done one long (12 hour) training session without pooping and it was only biking). I did urinate about every hour, so I was definitely hydrating enough. The first few hours i drank 3 bottles of Gatorade Endurance (3 scoops each) and was eating 3X sodium cliff blocks (150 mg per serving, 300 mg per sleeve) and some cliff shots that do not have extra sodium (vanilla flavor) (so I wasn't taking sodium pills during this time). I also drank some water during this time. When the GE ran out, I switched to water to reduce admin time. When combined with sodium and gels, I've hydrated with just water before without a problem. After a few hours, I switched to spring gels with some of the 3X sodium cliff blocks and sodium tablets occasionally. I usually take them "as needed," which ends up being every hour. My belly usually starts to feel full if I've only been drinking water and then when I take a sodium tablet, it seems to help things be absorbed. But I'm now thinking I did not actually take very many sodium pills. I definitely remember taking at least 1.
Anyway, lessons learned: 1) Do not slack on the sodium, especially if you switch from Gatorade to water. 2) I think my GI tract is more susceptible to discomfort in the middle of the night. I also think some of the normal signals my body gives me regarding food and hydration are disrupted in the middle of the night since it is not part of normal hormonal/circadian rhythm 3) Next virtual Everest attempt I will start early am (maybe 5 am) instead of night before. 4) This definitely took away any interest I have in doing an event that goes through the night (at least for now). I'm glad I tried this in the safety of my garage first, instead of on the open roads. It is hard to say how I would've felt if I had nailed my nutrition, but I don't want to try a night event again anytime soon. 5) In this situation in the future, I should probably have a checklist to count off the times I climb (I was hitting lap button on garmin edge, but clearly I was off in my head) and a checklist to make sure I take required sodium every hour. 6) In this situation, I did not get the mental and physiological boost from sunshine, since I am zwifting in my garage. I think that added to the challenge. I am very responsive to light and I think in a situation where I was doing something like this outside, I would get a mental/physiological boost from the sunshine.
Also, I tried to run ethernet cord from living room to garage, but found out my router isn't configured for this. Luckily I didn't run into an wifi or tech issues during the attempt.
On the upside: 1) I rode in a really low gear to simulate climbing outside or climbing the alpe on a smart trainer (I have dumb trainer with power pedals). And I was able to do it ok with all the climbs of a cadence around 60. 2) Physically I felt fine and after laying on the couch much of the day sunday and sleeping like 14 hours sunday night, my legs feel fine on Monday. :) Early in the ride I did have a niggle in my right patella. I get this sometimes, but I was worried because I felt it a early in the ride. I haven't done my hip adduction exercises in a week, so that is not too surprising. But happily I was able to work it out by focusing on engaging different parts of my quad during some pedal strokes.
Thanks for the continued inspiration, support and guidance team! I'm not planning to try an outdoor Everest anytime soon (maybe longest day of the summer). But I might try a virtual Everest with a 5 am start & just plan to climb fast ;).
I haven't got any advice for trying to go all night doing an endurance event. I used to work at night for a living, but that's a different story than trying to KMF at all costs.
However, I do have some advice on staying out of the porta potty during an IM. Since 2005, I have gone with a purely liquid diet after noon on the day before, and until I started taking longer than 12 hours for an IM, during the race itself as well. I'd suggest trying that for starters, along with taking a look at the fiber make-up of your diet 48 hours before race start. Nutrition and pacing are really the key to IM success, compared to other distances. One my my aphorisms is: "Pay attention to your nutrition and your pace; your time and place will take care of themselves."
Thanks a ton @Al Truscott ! Yes, I have experimented with fiber fasting in the day(s) leading up to a long event and that definitely makes a huge difference. In fact, a ~12 hour ride I did in October during which I had no sit-down bathroom breaks was a thrilling personal success in my goal toward being a more efficient endurance athlete (and I think that came largely from dietary choices I made the day before). Next time I try a virtual Everest, I will fiber fast the day before, and not abstain from solid foods during the ride (the latter choice based on my GI distress this weekend). I'm not sure I can do 12 hours of exercise with liquid only diet. Then I may experiment again with longer periods of exercise with liquid only diet.
@Larry Peters Major Kudo's on the attempt. Looking at your splits per lap you can easily complete during daylight hours. I'm still not getting the virtual everest ? To me one of the beautiful things about a long day (anything longer than a typical IM for me) is to just eat as normal, before and even during the event, when its time, take the time to do your business and continue. I do not worry about a short potty stop on an Ultra or Event of this nature. Agree it sucks to have to stop on an IM specially if really racing but a stop or two on an Ultra or Everest is not the end of the world. However reading your comments past and present on nutrition , I see a recurring theme. I think a lot of this is just overthinking the issue, constantly changing , looking for something magical to solve all . You do enough training, try drinking / eating whatever appeals to you , see how it goes , your stomach will adapt just like you :-)
Thanks a ton for the advice and support @tim cronk ! I plan to try it again with a 5 am start in January or February. And after more reflection and a couple 3-4 hour rides since then, I am pretty sure the main insult was insufficient sodium. I’m guessing all the other factors contributed to GI distress, too, but I definitely didn’t take enough sodium. Lessons learned.
Comments
Ha! Awesome @John Withrow ! Glad to hear you are interested! I can understand why you might retire from triathlon & not attend Al camp next year. None-the-less, I sure hope your 2020 plans involve Al camp! I think Everesting would be an awesome non-triathlon fitness challenge for post-triathlon life.
I also thought Castle Creek would be great from a low traffic standpoint, but I also concluded that it wasn't steep enough. Good points of caution on Maroon Creek.
That Catherine climb may be a good option! I don't remember a lot about it, but I don't think there was too much traffic.
I love the idea of being on independence pass, but you are probably right about wanting to have all the O2 we can get (i.e., staying at lower altitude). I like the partial IP idea, but I'm concerned that would not qualify as an official "Everest" according to these rules (and why not get our names in some record book if we are going to do it?):
"Rides must be full ascents each time (Strava segments or the accepted ‘traditional’ climbing route will generally be the best guide for this. You can’t commit to a combination of full and half laps). Acceptable is a shorter segment of a climb if it is recognized in its own right. If in doubt, ask."
If this was a finalist, I could ask them if it qualifies.
Here is a strava segment that matches what you described for the lower half of IP. And it does level off to ~1.1% briefly at the top of this segment, so they might allow it:
https://www.strava.com/segments/8049134?filter=overall
Thanks for that input @Al Truscott ! I love the fact that Frying Pan has low traffic and beautiful scenery. I think I recall the pavement being pretty good quality too.
Using existing strava segments, here are the numbers using Everest Calculator for the 1) climb out of catherine, 2) frying pan Ruedi climb (includes the steep spot before the damn to where that climb tops out), and 3) the segment I think Al is describing (called "Reudi climb to the dam" on Strava):
1) https://www.strava.com/segments/668429?filter=overall
2) https://www.strava.com/segments/4469984?filter=overall
3) https://www.strava.com/segments/2269444?filter=overall
"Reudi Climb to the dam" is the shortest total distance, but it does require a lot of turning around (~90 laps).
@scott dinhofer has some good options near his Ludlow place that have not yet been Everested: Brandon Gap (20 laps, ~338+ km total ride distance, ~4.1%) and the top of Middlebury Gap (44 laps, ~240+ km total ride distance, ~7.3%). My recollection was that traffic was minimal on both climbs on a Friday morning. And these are at low elevation, which helps a lot.
The Blue Triangles show the climbs that have already been everested. Appalachian Gap has already been "taken" (one of the blue triangles at the top of the Green Mtn Forest). App Gap was one of the prettier of the 6 gaps, but it did have more tight turns and was a steeper climb (at least the side I rode up). I rode Brandon & Middlebury this summer and they don't have a lot of tight corners, which is obviously good for the descents. The other side of Brandon gap was being repaved this summer too, but I haven't looked at how steep that is.
Does this interest you @scott dinhofer ? I don't think this would be a good idea to do shortly before France Camp...
Maybe I'm being a bit premature, but this is something fun to think about while I can't train....
@Larry Peters a "partial" ascent of any of the climbs WOULD count as an official "Everest". But I think you'd need to make the Strava segment well ahead of time and just do repeats of that particular segment. I'd even go as far as painting a stripe on the road where it starts and ends and keep a white board either at the top or the bottom where you can tick off the number you have done to keep track.
I think the idea of doing this at altitude without having at least acclimated for one week, and ideally a three weeks is stupider than stupid.. It may be THE stupidest withrow trick ever... doing this at Sea Levelish oxygenated air is hard enough. Ask @tim cronk - I have no doubts that Tim prepared, analyzed and gave this more thought than all of the people on this thread combined, and HE failed.
I think the right road to do this on in my area of Vermont is the Okemo mountain road from the ski lodge to the parking area at the top (end of paved road) gets you 3.2 miles 1776' of climbing at 10.6% average, for 16.35 trips up to accomplish the goal with minimal traffic. Can of course, make this shorter for more breaks as the whole road is typically 9.5-12% all the way up. The key is having eliminated that ass kicker from town up to the ski lodge.
I agree that I may have initially underestimated the magnitude of this challenge @scott dinhofer (and I may still be underestimating it). None-the-less, I am interested in it.
I like how little traffic Okemo has, but I think the 10.6% average grade makes it a lot harder than it could be. Also, the descent is fairly winding if I remember correctly. I could be convinced otherwise, but at this point, I'd prefer something less steep.
@Larry Peters ...Rob (and anyone else following along), let me be frank as usual, and then encouraging, as usual.
First off, I think the whole concept of Everesting as it is formally structured online is...well, I don't know the correct adjective, but it;s not something I am personally interested in doing. Not because it's hard, but for two other reasons: it's way more consecutive hours in the saddle than I find entertaining/fun and (worse) you are doing the same route over and over many multiple times - BORING!
When I thought about doing it for a brief moment a few years ago, I looked at places to try, and realised - Hey, maybe there's a junior version of this, and maybe I can do a cool thing, like do a "Rainier" (14,410') on Rainier! Ride up and down one of the roads I like on Mt Rainier, repetitively, and do half an "Everest" or so. It could all be done in the daylight, for one thing. Maybe to make it challenging, it would have to be in 12 hours.
So, as you progress towards completing your Everest (someday), maybe think about preparing for it by doing, say, Rainier on Rainier, or a Whitney (14,495') on Mt Whitney, or an Elbert (14,435') on Mt Elbert (between Leadville and Independence Pass - it would have to be on a mountain bike). Or even an Independence (12,090') on Independence - like the last 1.5 miles past the final hairpin.
You might even find yourself creating a new challenge - being the progenitor of a new multi-state challenge to do an Everest-like effort on multiple mountains in many states, riding up the roads which flank them, achieving the cumulative height of the mountain on which you are actually riding. A Mitchell on Mt Mitchell (North Carolina). A Washington on Mt. Washington. Let those damned Everest'ers try and do that!
Or, you could help me form an EN team to do this in 2021:
Come to Colorado for a couple of weeks to acclimate (including Al T'tude Bad Ass Camp), motor to my sister's place in Encinitas (near the start), pick up Matt Limbert (he lives a mile from my sister), and head back to Colorado on bikes. I'll have my mini-RV for support by then. It would be much less boring than an Everest, and probably just as cool bragging rights.
Just don't tell me we oughta do RAAM first...
@Al Truscott , thanks for the insights and encouragement!
1) I love the idea of "Rainier on Rainier" and "IP on IP," and "Whitney and Whitney." I think I'd have to get a new MTB and spend more (more than zero!) time MTB to consider Elbert on Elbert, but I love the sound of that too. Maybe IP on IP will be a better challenge at Al camp next year? We'll see how motivated others are to try and Everest.
2) I love the sound of EN RAW 2021! I'm totally down! That sounds like a monster challenge in beautiful scenery. Great way to get some good miles out of your new camper too. Its funny how people are always at least a year ahead of the announcements of EN key races :) (here might be another example). And I LOL'd at your "Just don't tell me we oughta do RAAM first...."
I tested out the legs on the most famous local climb with the thought that I would like to Everest on bike sometime in the next 6 months. I've only been back to cycling for about 6 weeks after 9 weeks off from accident, sprained foot and clavicle surgery. I was very pleased with how well this went. This climb is not the ideal everest climb (I did scout for some more ideal local climbs last weekend and found some). Downsides to everesting this climb: it is very short and kinda steep with a few bad potholes on the descent (0.24 miles and about 116 feet of gain). But on the bright side it is a dead-end "road" (a driveway for a back entrance to the local zoo, actually) near my house with no cars at all for the night (they lock cars out with a gate at the bottom of the climb) and limited traffic during the day. It is a somewhat iconic climb in the local community and 40 repeats and 50 repeats is a guaranteed strava segment trophy (because less than 10 people have completed it). It is also shaded and in a forest, so the scenery is nice (but I did worry about hitting animals on the descent, especially deer at night). There are bathrooms and water not far away and there is a 24 hour cafe a subway and a McDonalds within 1 mile too. I rode 47 repeats on this climb last December, so I had a warm, fuzzy feeling going back to it and definitely had familiarity.
On this test run yesterday, I included the flat parking loop at the top, which is part of the 30, 40 and 50 repeat strava segment, but not part of the 5, 10 and 20 repeat segment. I realized from this test that I'll gain elevation a lot faster if I just turn around when it flattens out and skip this flat part at the top during each lap (but I kept doing the loop because I want to make new strava segements from my ride and I wanted every lap to be the same route). If I Everest this, I'll skip the flat part.
I also experienced problems with the edge 520+ battery running low as @tim cronk mentioned above, so need to consider that for a full attempt.
Anyway, I rode my bike to/from the climb 6 miles each way (stashed a drop bag there the night before & brought another one the morning of) and racked up ~21,111 feet of gain in 117 miles with 174 repeats, 11hr26min moving time, 12:44 total time (keeping all my eating and bathroom breaks so short on such a long hard day is amazing for me! I didn't have to poop once!). I was really lucky a local friend came and rode with me for a couple hours and refilled some bottles.
I finished feeling really good like I could have kept climbing. I even pushed the 2nd to last climb to test the legs. So I definitely want to try to a full Everest at some point in the next 6 months. I had -28 TSB to start the day and was feeling a little worn out the day before (but I think my FTP is a bit low, so that number is probably a bit artificially low). I also pushed harder than I normally would the first 30 repeats to get a top 10 strava trophy for the 30 repeat segment. I knew that might jeopardize my goal for the day, but I went for it anyway, got 9th place by only 45 seconds and still met my stretch goal of 20k total climbing. But after the adrenaline wore off at home, my knees were pretty tight and I did have some dull soreness in my tendons. Then I thought about the fact that I would probably need to start around midnight the night before and realized that the leap from 21k to 29k is probably quite significant. I was thinking 1 more month of serious training should make it pretty attainable. But by then Michigan weather may mean that there is a risk of ice forming on the road at night and the days will be quite short (not to mention being out for 16-24 hours in 35-45 degree weather sounds less enjoyable to me). So I may have to wait until Christmas break (visiting family in Sonoma County CA and Austin, TX) or next summer.
Thanks for the continued inspiration and mentorship team!
https://www.strava.com/activities/2789700743
With the help of @Patricia Rosen , I think I found a great segment/climb in Austin, TX to consider for an Everest attempt in early January. I'll be in Austin for ~2.5 weeks staying with my brother and SIL. They live right in the same neighborhood as Patti and in the same neighborhood as this climb! I figure I can spend a day training on it early in my trip, recover with a mini-taper and then go for it toward the end of my trip. More planning to come, but for now...I'm excited.
Low traffic, good grade, near my brother's house and no one has done it according to Hells500 records...I'm excited.
0.46 miles, ~195 feet of gain:
https://www.strava.com/segments/1041738
@Larry Peters - rob as you mentioned on the group me, you will be challenged by availability of daylight this time of year. While you stated that you believe you will know all the issues with the road as you roll into nightfall, i would argue that you will become more and more fatigued and brain fatigued as well. I'd be very concerned about availability of street lighting and what you are using on the bike.
I do nightride gravel with a group of guys all winter. I use something like this on my bars with a 750 helmet light that goes whereever I aim it.. Lights up the night unbelievably.
If you can give me address where you are staying in Austin, I can lend/ship to you right before your attempt if you get it back to me day after... as this will be during my riding season..
@scott dinhofer thanks a ton for the thoughtful reply and generous offer to loan me your light!!
My plan would be to start at night so that I am more fresh and alert when riding in the dark. I would try to start early enough (thinking around midnight or 1 am, but need to refine that plan after doing a day of training on the selected climb) so that I would finish before sunset the next day. Also, the days won’t be as short in Texas as they are in Michigan, so that should help a bit.
I agree lighting is critical. I currently have three bright headlights (~300-500 lumen each). But I was planning on investing in another (possibly) brighter light (With longer battery life) as part of this attempt. Wow, the light you have has some great specs, but is a major investment too. So your offer to borrow that light might be perfect. Thanks!
I won’t be going to texas until 12/25. I will see what kind of deals there are on lights when Black Friday weekend rolls around. If I don’t end up buying a light, I would love to borrow yours, and would certainly mail it back immediately.
Thanks Hoff!
@Larry Peters - i think mine is only 1600 lumens :-), it's "like" that one in setup
"the days won’t be as short in Texas as they are in Michigan" - they are going to be shorter than you think and not that much longer than in MI, maybe only 20-30 mins..
Ok, cool. Thanks @scott dinhofer ! Yeah, good point. I thought the difference between daylight hours in Texas and Michigan would be greater. But the extra 20-30 minutes won't hurt. We'll see how a training day on my potential hill goes. Then I'll think about timing and whether or not it is better to wait until spring or summer.
@Larry Peters Rob - Since your first cycling century was up Fryingpan Road to 9300', 6000 of climbing total, and your first 200+ ride was that Withrow Hell on Wheels Special over Independence and Tennessee passes, then into the wind down the Colorado, I suppose I should just say, "Go For It." Even though I think the best time to attempt an Everest would be the week after you get back from France - longest days of the year, head Up North to make them longer, you'll be doubly pumped from your time at altitude in CO, then your days in Les Alps getting strong like mountain goat. Just don't crash, man.
Ha ha ha, thanks @Al Truscott ! Yes, I agree the longer days are an important factor, and of course, crashing is my biggest hesitation. But for some reason, I'm kinda interested in doing it more than once. You get to "tag" the climb when you are the first person to do it on the Everesting map/records.
https://everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/#/map
So it appeals to me in some of the ways that segment hunting does: "stamping" my name on a little part of endurance history (but no one can steal this record back). And I figure doing it once at sea level would be a good test to see if I could consider doing it at higher altitude in CO and/or on a harder climb elsewhere. As you may recall, there was some interest as making an Everesting attempt the "big day" at Al camp this year. If I enjoy it (in the crazy way that we enjoy these things we do), I will probably also want to do it in Michigan this summer to "claim" one of my local hills (no one has claimed any in my town yet). The shorter days coming is also a big incentive to get my W/kg as high as possible by early January (if I attempt it then). The faster I can climb, the less hours riding in the darkness needed. If I do go for it, I'll be certain to have all the brightest lights possible completely lighting up the road, and I'll avoid looking up at any fireworks. I also plan to descend slowly (and ride the brakes) in the hours around dawn in the event that a deer runs out at just the wrong time.
You got me intrigued so I looked at my biggest local climb. It has 440 m of elevation and takes me 45 min to ride it. Everest has over 8500 m of climb so I would be climbing that climb about 21 times. The most I have made it is 3 times so far and it is in a park that is only open 12 hours so I am thinking that this challenge might not be for me after all.
I may just stick with a "knight of Sufferlandria" at 10 hours
So cool to see this thread revived. Its still on my back burner and wanna get back to it. Also interested in an Everest on foot. Not sure when either may happen.
@Larry Peters for me personally the ride is hard enough actually it was too hard lol, but my theory was I need to eliminate anything that may make it even harder, those were daylight hrs available, weather , altitude, and the right route choice... I wanted my attempt as close to the longest day of the year to maximize daylight... Comfortable day and night temps, with no precip and light winds... grades - 5-6 degrees works for me , any less and your not racking up much vert , once I go 7-8 degrees its more stressing on my lower back and need more gears... Route length is a something to consider as well, its nice to get descending breaks every 30' ... lots of these are personal choices and can certainly be overcome... Ray Brown an ex ENer has done a bunch of these in all kinds of conditions, but he is much tougher than I. Totally agree that if your going to do this it needs to be on a first ascent hill so you get credit and live in infamy :-)
Thanks a ton for the feedback @tim cronk ! I'm pretty sure I"m going to attempt a virtual Everest starting early Sunday 12/1 (around 2 am). We'll see how that goes. 9 trips of Alpe du Zwift if anyone wants to jump in. I originally told a few people I would start Saturday 11/30 ~2 am (i.e., late Friday night), but at this point, I'm planning to push it back 1 day. Feel free to ride up AdZ a bit with me Sunday if you are free and interested. I figure this will be another good way to test the water for a full outdoor everest attempt.
@Larry Peters be sure and get on Discord. I will be out of town but if I get back in time, I will ride with you for a bit. Go Man!
Ok, i will definitely! Thanks a ton for the support @Ralph Moore ! I’ll send a message to the Zwift EN group-me confirming details Friday or Saturday.
Well, I tried and failed at the virtual everest. I went with an 11:11 PM start time because I wanted to better simulate what might be required for an outdoor everest (everyone on everesting FB page says virtual everest is hours shorter than outdoor everest). And I planned to ride further into sunday, again as a better test for the time required for a potential outdoor everest.
My immediate feeling in the 24 hours that followed is that I don't ever want to do an event that goes through the night again. It was awful. But I think a big part of that was that I think I developed hyponatremia from drinking too much water and not taking my sodium tablets every hour, like I normally do. I got really ill and started vomiting. Twice when I knealt down to vomit into a bucket, I woke up passed out on the floor. So I had to call it quits. I got up the Alpe 6 times (on discord, I said I was on my 7th lap, but I must've been delusional or mis-counted). I also fueled the first 3-4 hours on liquids/blocks only. Normally I use more solid food, but I wanted to see if I could use less solid food with hopes that would require less bathroom breaks later in the event (forecasting to an ironman, I am still trying to figure out if I can go 10.5-12 hours without pooping. I think I've only done one long (12 hour) training session without pooping and it was only biking). I did urinate about every hour, so I was definitely hydrating enough. The first few hours i drank 3 bottles of Gatorade Endurance (3 scoops each) and was eating 3X sodium cliff blocks (150 mg per serving, 300 mg per sleeve) and some cliff shots that do not have extra sodium (vanilla flavor) (so I wasn't taking sodium pills during this time). I also drank some water during this time. When the GE ran out, I switched to water to reduce admin time. When combined with sodium and gels, I've hydrated with just water before without a problem. After a few hours, I switched to spring gels with some of the 3X sodium cliff blocks and sodium tablets occasionally. I usually take them "as needed," which ends up being every hour. My belly usually starts to feel full if I've only been drinking water and then when I take a sodium tablet, it seems to help things be absorbed. But I'm now thinking I did not actually take very many sodium pills. I definitely remember taking at least 1.
Anyway, lessons learned: 1) Do not slack on the sodium, especially if you switch from Gatorade to water. 2) I think my GI tract is more susceptible to discomfort in the middle of the night. I also think some of the normal signals my body gives me regarding food and hydration are disrupted in the middle of the night since it is not part of normal hormonal/circadian rhythm 3) Next virtual Everest attempt I will start early am (maybe 5 am) instead of night before. 4) This definitely took away any interest I have in doing an event that goes through the night (at least for now). I'm glad I tried this in the safety of my garage first, instead of on the open roads. It is hard to say how I would've felt if I had nailed my nutrition, but I don't want to try a night event again anytime soon. 5) In this situation in the future, I should probably have a checklist to count off the times I climb (I was hitting lap button on garmin edge, but clearly I was off in my head) and a checklist to make sure I take required sodium every hour. 6) In this situation, I did not get the mental and physiological boost from sunshine, since I am zwifting in my garage. I think that added to the challenge. I am very responsive to light and I think in a situation where I was doing something like this outside, I would get a mental/physiological boost from the sunshine.
Also, I tried to run ethernet cord from living room to garage, but found out my router isn't configured for this. Luckily I didn't run into an wifi or tech issues during the attempt.
On the upside: 1) I rode in a really low gear to simulate climbing outside or climbing the alpe on a smart trainer (I have dumb trainer with power pedals). And I was able to do it ok with all the climbs of a cadence around 60. 2) Physically I felt fine and after laying on the couch much of the day sunday and sleeping like 14 hours sunday night, my legs feel fine on Monday. :) Early in the ride I did have a niggle in my right patella. I get this sometimes, but I was worried because I felt it a early in the ride. I haven't done my hip adduction exercises in a week, so that is not too surprising. But happily I was able to work it out by focusing on engaging different parts of my quad during some pedal strokes.
Thanks for the continued inspiration, support and guidance team! I'm not planning to try an outdoor Everest anytime soon (maybe longest day of the summer). But I might try a virtual Everest with a 5 am start & just plan to climb fast ;).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W76gAfdNBxBFCLDfykxj5qfP83jCgmKVnyuo7jQ09Ig/edit#gid=0
@Larry Peters "A" for effort.
I haven't got any advice for trying to go all night doing an endurance event. I used to work at night for a living, but that's a different story than trying to KMF at all costs.
However, I do have some advice on staying out of the porta potty during an IM. Since 2005, I have gone with a purely liquid diet after noon on the day before, and until I started taking longer than 12 hours for an IM, during the race itself as well. I'd suggest trying that for starters, along with taking a look at the fiber make-up of your diet 48 hours before race start. Nutrition and pacing are really the key to IM success, compared to other distances. One my my aphorisms is: "Pay attention to your nutrition and your pace; your time and place will take care of themselves."
Thanks a ton @Al Truscott ! Yes, I have experimented with fiber fasting in the day(s) leading up to a long event and that definitely makes a huge difference. In fact, a ~12 hour ride I did in October during which I had no sit-down bathroom breaks was a thrilling personal success in my goal toward being a more efficient endurance athlete (and I think that came largely from dietary choices I made the day before). Next time I try a virtual Everest, I will fiber fast the day before, and not abstain from solid foods during the ride (the latter choice based on my GI distress this weekend). I'm not sure I can do 12 hours of exercise with liquid only diet. Then I may experiment again with longer periods of exercise with liquid only diet.
@Larry Peters Major Kudo's on the attempt. Looking at your splits per lap you can easily complete during daylight hours. I'm still not getting the virtual everest ? To me one of the beautiful things about a long day (anything longer than a typical IM for me) is to just eat as normal, before and even during the event, when its time, take the time to do your business and continue. I do not worry about a short potty stop on an Ultra or Event of this nature. Agree it sucks to have to stop on an IM specially if really racing but a stop or two on an Ultra or Everest is not the end of the world. However reading your comments past and present on nutrition , I see a recurring theme. I think a lot of this is just overthinking the issue, constantly changing , looking for something magical to solve all . You do enough training, try drinking / eating whatever appeals to you , see how it goes , your stomach will adapt just like you :-)
Thanks a ton for the advice and support @tim cronk ! I plan to try it again with a 5 am start in January or February. And after more reflection and a couple 3-4 hour rides since then, I am pretty sure the main insult was insufficient sodium. I’m guessing all the other factors contributed to GI distress, too, but I definitely didn’t take enough sodium. Lessons learned.
I would also say that there is no place for KOMs during an Everest attempt.