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IMWI nutrition questions, shaping into a plan !

GwiedGwied
in General Training Discussions
I have a series of questions, to dial-in supplements and nutrition ASAP. I'll be working on this during two IMWI course rides this Aug 12-13. <img src='http://members.endurancenation.ushttp://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/smile.gif' align="absmiddle" border="0" class="afEmoticon" />?? It's down to 4+ weeks before Ironman Wisconsin 2016!  

1. Pre-swim: Assuming I am NOT using glucose/sucrose/maltodextrin sources (see below), what should I take 20-30 min before swim start? (e.g., Redbull + 1 scoop superstarch?)

2. Fuel: superstarch: what is the difference in usage between UCAN and Vitargo? I need some help fine-tuning fueling with the Vitargo or UCAN superstarch for the entire IronMan. They are both starch/engineered longchain molecule fuel, and get out of the stomach quickly. Vitargo is considerably cheaper per calorie, but do those calories burn in the same way/at the same rate? I have already tested both products mixed very thick to support all calories for at least a 5 hour ride - both leave the stomach quickly and kept blood sugar steady. I will flavor the plain product (no Sucralose in my gut!) with tart cherry concentrate, beet juice powder, or NUUN tablets. A second bottle of thick-mix at bike special needs is possible, but I have not yet maxed-out the viscosity in ONE bottle. Planning to fuel run as bike with similar thick-mix flask of Vitargo superstarch - no GI issues! - with a 2nd (frozen?) bottle in special needs.

3. Fuel timing: I plan (and have rehearsed on 5+ hr rides) alternating fuel on the hour and MAP etc on the 1/2 hour (or vice versa), drinking water from aero bottle as needed every 10 min or so. But since on those several long rides I felt the 1 scoop/hr starch was not quite enough, I consumed two energy/solid bars (amounting to 300-400 cal), I think I should modify the frequency to be every 50min/25min. After settling into the run for 3-6 mi, timing will be approx. same as on bike.

4. Burning fat: I am using EN as my coaching – years of experience, proven workout strategies and winning athletes, and I trust their ROI approach on this journey. However, there's not much "get outside the box" of what's easy and provided on the course (for many athletes, a good thing: Gatorade + Powerbar products), nor do i see stuff like periodic ketosis in training or racing. Though I am NOT going to be in nutritional ketosis, how can I continue to train my body to burn more fat in the midst of high-volume last few weeks of training?

5. Water: should I replace 100% of fluid while on the bike? and consume approximately 500-700 cal/hour (to be determined more precisely, see above), in order to start the  run with NO DEFICIT in hydration or calories? 40+ oz H2O/hr seems like a lot of water! So far, I drink ~22 oz/hr or 1.5 bottles in 90 deg heat, but those 5 hr rides have been followed by ONE hour brick runs, not a marathon. What do you think?

6. Electrolytes: Do I follow Dr. Tim Noakes (author of Waterlogged), and take NO extra electrolytes during the whole (13+ hrs) race ("you should also always drink to thirst, and no extra salt is needed"); or, follow EN approach, online forum contributors and pro reports, and take 700-1000 mg Na /hour? So far, my long rides (~5 hrs) have NOT revealed a clear difference (one ride with 500+ mg/hr Na, another with no added Na, both felt OK)

7. Supplements: currently, my long runs and long rides include per hour: [5 g MAP + cholostrum + ginseng ] (Alternated, as above, with fuel sips). I plan to add Rhodiola and L-theanine to the supplement mix also - so far, all well-tolerated. How much L-theanine should I add per hour? Any other enhancements? Do these extras alter the osmolality/absorption of the fuel?

8. Extras: Does wasp venom extract have good science justifying use? Or good anecdotal reports?

9. Caffeine: Does it make sense to hold off from caffeine until ~mile 12 or 18 of the run, when I will need some kind of "go juice" in addition to my will-power and EN-SMARTS and 4 KEYS EXECUTION up to that point?


Thank you for your feedback/links/time!
Cheers,
Glenn
<img src='http://members.endurancenation.ushttp://members.endurancenation.us/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/_default/emoticons/smile.gif' align="absmiddle" border="0" class="afEmoticon" />

Comments

  • William JenksWilliam Jenks
    I can't comment on all of that, but I will comment on the amount of fluid.

    I am basically with Noakes that people tend to overdo it on salt, but there IS the danger of hyponatremia if you drink tons of water and consume nothing else...that's obviously not your plan...but be aware of both sides of that equation.

    You are preparing for a very long day, and my limited experience (3 races at that distance) indicates that it's not just from a muscular standpoint that you want to reach the run. You also want to be in very good hydration/nutrition conditions. I don't know that I aim for 100% fluid replacement, but my most successful race was one where I got more fluid than I could get away with on a ride only or even a race rehearsal. On a warm day, for me, that's three bike bottles/hour that I want to get down...about 60-70 ounces. On my RRs I could get away with two, but when I was honest with myself, I realized I was a bit dehydrated and not as prepared to run as i should be.

    $0.02,
    William
  • Coach RichCoach Rich
    Glenn, is there a reason why you're not using the nutrition provided on the course? To be quite honest, I'm not familiar with any / most of the products you use below and my overall impression of your plan is that it's very, very complex and is dependent on self-sourced nutrition solutions. In our experience this is a risky path as you're often unable to solve any problems that arrive by switching to what's on the course. 

    Posted By Glenn Wiedenhoeft on 09 Aug 2016 12:37 PM


    I have a series of questions, to dial-in supplements and nutrition ASAP. I'll be working on this during two IMWI course rides this Aug 12-13. ?? It's down to 4+ weeks before Ironman Wisconsin 2016!  



    1. Pre-swim: Assuming I am NOT using glucose/sucrose/maltodextrin sources (see below), what should I take 20-30 min before swim start? (e.g., Redbull + 1 scoop superstarch?)



    2. Fuel: superstarch: what is the difference in usage between UCAN and Vitargo? I need some help fine-tuning fueling with the Vitargo or UCAN superstarch for the entire IronMan. They are both starch/engineered longchain molecule fuel, and get out of the stomach quickly. Vitargo is considerably cheaper per calorie, but do those calories burn in the same way/at the same rate? I have already tested both products mixed very thick to support all calories for at least a 5 hour ride - both leave the stomach quickly and kept blood sugar steady. I will flavor the plain product (no Sucralose in my gut!) with tart cherry concentrate, beet juice powder, or NUUN tablets. A second bottle of thick-mix at bike special needs is possible, but I have not yet maxed-out the viscosity in ONE bottle. Planning to fuel run as bike with similar thick-mix flask of Vitargo superstarch - no GI issues! - with a 2nd (frozen?) bottle in special needs. Not familiar with these products, hopefully others are. 



    3. Fuel timing: I plan (and have rehearsed on 5+ hr rides) alternating fuel on the hour and MAP etc on the 1/2 hour (or vice versa), drinking water from aero bottle as needed every 10 min or so. But since on those several long rides I felt the 1 scoop/hr starch was not quite enough, I consumed two energy/solid bars (amounting to 300-400 cal), I think I should modify the frequency to be every 50min/25min. After settling into the run for 3-6 mi, timing will be approx. same as on bike.



    4. Burning fat: I am using EN as my coaching – years of experience, proven workout strategies and winning athletes, and I trust their ROI approach on this journey. However, there's not much "get outside the box" of what's easy and provided on the course (for many athletes, a good thing: Gatorade + Powerbar products), nor do i see stuff like periodic ketosis in training or racing. Though I am NOT going to be in nutritional ketosis, how can I continue to train my body to burn more fat in the midst of high-volume last few weeks of training? The ability to burn more fat vs glucose is a natural byproduct of endurance training. Your body figures it out. I don't have an experience this ketosis path but I know others do and suggest you do some searches using the search field at the top of the site here. 



    5. Water: should I replace 100% of fluid while on the bike? and consume approximately 500-700 cal/hour (to be determined more precisely, see above), in order to start the  run with NO DEFICIT in hydration or calories? 40+ oz H2O/hr seems like a lot of water! So far, I drink ~22 oz/hr or 1.5 bottles in 90 deg heat, but those 5 hr rides have been followed by ONE hour brick runs, not a marathon. What do you think? You should be weighing yourself before every ride, tracking how much fluid you drink, weighing yourself after your ride and determining your sweat rate per hour. I can say that hydration is everything for Ironman racing and that once you get behind it's nearly impossible to catch up on the run. 



    6. Electrolytes: Do I follow Dr. Tim Noakes (author of Waterlogged), and take NO extra electrolytes during the whole (13+ hrs) race ("you should also always drink to thirst, and no extra salt is needed"); or, follow EN approach, online forum contributors and pro reports, and take 700-1000 mg Na /hour? So far, my long rides (~5 hrs) have NOT revealed a clear difference (one ride with 500+ mg/hr Na, another with no added Na, both felt OK) . Don't know how many IM athletes Noakes has brought across IM finishlines but we've helped a few  and our guidance of 500-1000mg of sodium per hour works. However, you need to determine where you are on that scale. I know I'm in the 500-600mg range and I definitely get into trouble if I go under this or over about 900mg, especially if it's accompanied by dehydration. 



    7. Supplements: currently, my long runs and long rides include per hour: [5 g MAP + cholostrum + ginseng ] (Alternated, as above, with fuel sips). I plan to add Rhodiola and L-theanine to the supplement mix also - so far, all well-tolerated. How much L-theanine should I add per hour? Any other enhancements? Do these extras alter the osmolality/absorption of the fuel? Don't know, no idea what these supplements are. 



    8. Extras: Does wasp venom extract have good science justifying use? Or good anecdotal reports? ??? Sorry, I have to ask...where are you getting these ideas??



    9. Caffeine: Does it make sense to hold off from caffeine until ~mile 12 or 18 of the run, when I will need some kind of "go juice" in addition to my will-power and EN-SMARTS and 4 KEYS EXECUTION up to that point? I've had success with caffeine before the race, then 200mg Vivarin tabs at 2hrs, 5hrs, and 7hrs of race time. Yes, it's a lot but it works for me. I also drink a LOT of coffee on a daily basis.





    Thank you for your feedback/links/time!

    Cheers,

    Glenn



  • drjohnson08drjohnson08
    Similar to the other responses, I don't have any experience with ketosis or using fat to fuel your race but I do have a couple questions/comments...

    1. You say you're not going to use glucose/sucrose/maltodextrin sources but....the first item you mention to start off your day is RedBull. I believe that stuff has quite a bit of sucrose/HFCS. Seems to contradict your nutrition plan.

    5. I would reiterate that you should be practicing your race fueling on those long rides. For example, if you've been consuming 300 calories an hour during training but on race day you decide to jump to 500-700 calories an hour, you have no idea how your body is going to respond.

    9. Caffeine - Another thing to practice during training. On race day I'll take in 150 mg as soon as I wake up to get things moving. Then I won't take any more until a couple hours into the bike. Then I'm taking 25 mg every 30 minutes plus whatever amount is in coke for the last 8-10 miles of the race.
  • GwiedGwied
    Hi Coach Rich,
    This is great stuff, thank you very much!
    The emphasis on ZERO hydration, calorie and salt deficit entering the run - I'm getting it. And the 2 long rides Fri-Sat of my (delayed) Camp Week will be as "data-fied" as I can manage (this is NOT the first time!): weight in, weight out (the scale is in the car!) ; H2O, calories, electrolytes, caffeine consumed,
    I get the "weird stuff" ideas from various nutrition/fitness/endurance/marathon podcasts - especially the super-starch approach to consistent blood sugar levels and NO stomach distress. Before starting with UCAN and Vitargo, I used Hammer Perpetuum (maltodextrin-based + amino acids; also as a thick mix) for several marathons & 2 HIMs, also with good success. I guess people DO get upset GI in Ironman fueling with sugar - I just listened to the EN podcast about handling your fears and getting blood sugar up to make rational decisions, and heard a couple references to GI problems that sounded like it's normal... So do I just let that happen, for the sake of real simplicity on the course, or avoid GI problems by fueling with what works but IS complicated? I may answer that in the next 2 days.
    Back to the 2 rides: I have the opportunity to allay my fears of Gatorade - I can fuel the 80 mile ride w Gatorade, then the 112 IMWI ride with my own concoction, and compare. Maybe it's not as bad as I think, or maybe it's too late to switch because I've already trained my system to NOT tolerate a 12 hr influx of sucrose/glucose/fructose...
    Your pointed question about Dr. Noakes is valid - lots of intriguing, paradigm-shifting research (e.g., on Army soldiers working/running with packs all day in 90 deg heat without Na supplementation) is not the same as putting athletes across the IM finish line!

    Regarding improved fat-burning: I'm surprised that is just a result of endurance training; it seems fat-burning efficiency must come via endurance training + more fat as fuel - less carbs as fuel.. OR?

    I reckon this has all been covered before; sorry to take your time before a thorough search of the archives here!

    Tiredly but Excitedly,
    Glenn W.

    imageimageimage
  • Joe MatchetteJoe Matchette
    Glenn,
    The first thing that came to my mind reading your plan --- Way. Too. Complicated.
    There will be enough moving parts to keep your mind occupied (see the "What can go wrong on Race Day" thread...), that the LESS you have to think, the BETTER.
    It very well might be too late to make a course correction now, but please consider going simpler for future races....
    Joe
  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    Posted By Glenn Wiedenhoeft on 12 Aug 2016 01:05 AM


    Hi Coach Rich,

    This is great stuff, thank you very much!

    The emphasis on ZERO hydration, calorie and salt deficit entering the run - I'm getting it. And the 2 long rides Fri-Sat of my (delayed) Camp Week will be as "data-fied" as I can manage (this is NOT the first time!): weight in, weight out (the scale is in the car!) ; H2O, calories, electrolytes, caffeine consumed,

    I get the "weird stuff" ideas from various nutrition/fitness/endurance/marathon podcasts - especially the super-starch approach to consistent blood sugar levels and NO stomach distress. Before starting with UCAN and Vitargo, I used Hammer Perpetuum (maltodextrin-based + amino acids; also as a thick mix) for several marathons & 2 HIMs, also with good success. I guess people DO get upset GI in Ironman fueling with sugar - I just listened to the EN podcast about handling your fears and getting blood sugar up to make rational decisions, and heard a couple references to GI problems that sounded like it's normal... So do I just let that happen, for the sake of real simplicity on the course, or avoid GI problems by fueling with what works but IS complicated? I may answer that in the next 2 days.

    Back to the 2 rides: I have the opportunity to allay my fears of Gatorade - I can fuel the 80 mile ride w Gatorade, then the 112 IMWI ride with my own concoction, and compare. Maybe it's not as bad as I think, or maybe it's too late to switch because I've already trained my system to NOT tolerate a 12 hr influx of sucrose/glucose/fructose...

    Your pointed question about Dr. Noakes is valid - lots of intriguing, paradigm-shifting research (e.g., on Army soldiers working/running with packs all day in 90 deg heat without Na supplementation) is not the same as putting athletes across the IM finish line!



    Regarding improved fat-burning: I'm surprised that is just a result of endurance training; it seems fat-burning efficiency must come via endurance training + more fat as fuel - less carbs as fuel.. OR?



    I reckon this has all been covered before; sorry to take your time before a thorough search of the archives here!



    Tiredly but Excitedly,

    Glenn W.




    See this recent thread Coach Patrick started to begin a discussion about alternatives to sugar-based race execution. It's taken a good turn as people discuss alternatives to Gatorade Endurance while still fueling themselves from the course. 

    Do a search for ketosis and/or ping John Withrow to have him point you to some good discussion threads he's started, as he's the fat burning guru on the squad. 

    Noakes: I haven't read his stuff in a long time and have heard about his no-sodium guidance. But thousands and thousands of athlete have been successful using sodium on race day by staying within a range they've identified as good for them. Personally, I've experienced the consequences of low and high sodium and I know what the sweet spot is for me. Basically, I would take this experience of thousands of Ironman athletes and go with it as a "if it ain't broke" kinda thing rather then relying on Noakes contrarian advice and going that route. Maybe if you were 16wks out and wanted to experiment, yes. But 4wks out...go with the it ain't broke strategies

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