I have a question about alternating my 3-hour race rehearsal for a half-marathon.
I am starting my fourth week of training, and I will be up to 35 miles of volume. I am happy to announce that I am feeling good. This past weekend, I did 15 miles at 8:54 on a hilly course in Central Park. I am hoping to run Philly at a pace in the 8:30-8:45 area. Thus summer, I was doing my 12-14-milers at a 9:30 pace as part of my triathlon training. So, I think that I am making progress.
In my last post on this thread, I suggested running a popular trail run near my home. However, I think there is some risk of tripping on a rock or root. Moreover, I think that I want to test my fitness in a flat half-marathon course. Therefore, I could do the Hartford half-marathon, which is five weeks from the Philly marathon. This would be the same weekend as my scheduled 3-hour race rehearsal.
Should I sign up for this and see how fast I can run? Then, I would have a better idea of how to pace myself at Philly.
Alternatively, if running a hard half-marathon would set me back then I could do the trail half-marathon at a more leisurely pace. (The trail-marathon is six weeks before Philly.)
I am OK with you doing the half marathon, but I would want you to run it at half marathon pace. In other words, I would like it to be a little challenging for you and not just 13 miles of marathon running.
according to Jack Daniels, you should be able to run a half marathon around 828 pace per mile. so I would be OK with you challenging yourself to raise the piece, using a proper pacing plan for a half, as part of your builder. We could easily add another easy longer run to the following week to get volume in if needed. Here is the chart I was using.
It looks like the Hartford HM won't be in the cards. It required a September 1st registration to get a race packet via mail. (It will be impossible for me to get there during the week to pick up my number).
That leaves me with three choices a) Trail HM on October 7(the week before my race rehearsal) b) Westchester HM (the week of my race rehearsal) or c) just proceed with the plan as is but without an actual race during these last seven weeks of training.
I am inclined to choose option a) but will defer to your judgement.
I would like to do an actual HM race to break up the monotony of my long Saturday run. The trail HM is technical and has lots of shorty punchy hills, so it will be slow but challenging. However, the pacing won't be anything like what I need for Philly. But it will also allow me to stick with the schedule as is (with a full race rehearsal the following week).
The Westchester HM is on a local parkway that is shaded, smoothly paved and well supported; but the course has lots of rolling hills. Thus, my pacing would not be like what Philly would require. It would also require that I move the race rehearsal run or delete it from my training plan.
Either of the HM race options will give me good HR data and will improve my aerobic profile.
My training has been going OK. I was getting much faster, and even doing 12-14 mile training runs in the 8:45 area (compared with 9:30 when I am training for triathlons). However, the last two weeks haven't been great. I am having a hard time picking up the pace at the end of my long runs. The past two weeks, my HR was getting into the 160s at the end of my run, but I was only running at 8:50-8:55. My plan had me descending below 8:30 at the end of my run.
I doing my long runs near the beach by my house. It is a bit monotonous, but I have access to a bathroom, the course is consistently flat and there are very few cars.
Having a high HR is not something I have experienced since I started training for triathlons. When I am0 cycling heavily, I cannot run fast because my legs feel heavy. However, my HR would stay in the 140s or maybe reach the low 150s. Now, my legs feel fresher, but my HR is reaching the high 160s-low 170s on some of my longer tempo efforts. I believe that my maximum theoretical HR is in the 180-182 area.
Long story short, I feel like my running is transforming from a defensive triathlon profile to more of a runners' form. However, I feel like I have hit a plateau over the past two weeks.
I am not too worried, but I am realizing that a BQ is going to be a multi-year journey. The metabolic profile, strength, body composition, stride-length and run efficiency required to get to a 7:50 M-pace are well beyond my current state. However, I am seeing improvements in my form, ability to hold long tempo paces and in my ability to run hills. But given my recent run data, it looks like I should be targeting a slightly slower pace at Philly.
I ran 37 miles this week. That is a multi-year peak for me. Nevertheless, I have been increasing my mileage conservatively. I am generally pain free. My feet are getting sore when I take my first steps of the day, and I feel a little bit of pressure under my kneecap. However, I have no pain when I run, and no pain afterwards. There is no pain in my knee before, during or after my runs.
Thank you for the update! I like the trail half marathon for you I some variety. Given what you mentioned about the long runs and your heart rate, it sounds like you could use a little variety in terms of training stimulus.
Sometimes going back and putting that same level of work out again and again can be too much for your assistance with this award. Honestly, that’s what I feel like we are seeing here. You have done the work, but the overall chronic fatigue is such that you need a little more rest. This trail half marathon should be just what the doctor ordered. You get a good workout in, you cannot be obsessed for time, and you can return to your regular training with enough time before the race.
Just checking back in as my Philly marathon reaches its peak this week. Also, I need a recommendation on pacing for the marathon.
Last week, I ran ~42 miles. This week the training plan jumps up quite a bit with longer tempo runs, so that my target mileage is 48 miles. Then next week I start tapering.
This past weekend, I did my second 18-mile race rehearsal. I ran it at an 8:59/mile pace, and across hillier terrain than Philly, which is pretty flat. I was working towards descending miles the whole way, but I had a several hills towards the end of the run that prevented me from descending to the 18th mile.
So far, I am feeling good. My knee is pain-free, but I feel a slight bit of pressure under the kneecap. I am assuming that there is some fluid in there, but it is not causing pain or mobility issues. However, on longer runs, my left knee (that had the problem last year) feels different than the right knee. The only way I can describe it is that it feels like there is some slight pressure under the kneecap. Also, I am feeling some occasional pain on the interior part of upper thigh, where my right hip connects to my pelvis, as well as some tightness in my Achilles tendon. Yesterday, I felt sore after my 18-miler, but I am very happy to say that I was essentially pain-free when I got out of bed this morning. Over the past few years, I have felt quite banged up from running, but this year I feel consistently good despite heavy mileage and frequent interval workouts.
Also, I need to determine my pacing for the marathon. I think that I am capable of running somewhere between an 3:50 and 3:45. That translates to something like an 8:46 to 8:35/mile. The 8:35 is aspirational, while the 8:46 seems reasonable. I think that I would have a VDOT of 42 with rest (my last VDOT was 41 on a 5K after a heavy several days of running, and the test was taken in the dark on a road that required a headlamp) and an 8:46 corresponds to a VDOT of 40. Also, my girlfriend just ran Chicago in 8:53/mile, and I am generally about 10 seconds faster than she is.
This past weekend between miles 9 and 15, I was running 8:37-8:40s at HRs between 145 and 150 bpm. (This was before I hit the hills at the end of my run. ) According to my last VDOT test, my lactate threshold was 149 bpm. The previous two tests were 152, and 148 bpm.
Therefore, I think it is reasonable for me to shoot for an 8:46 pace, and hope that I can go faster.
Finally, I have the opportunity to run the LA marathon with my brother and my girlfriend in 21 weeks. I am inclined to do it, provided that my next 2.5 weeks of training go well.
Thanks so much for checking in! Honestly, I think that trying to peek out at 48 miles is a bad idea. I think your body is already pushing back at this point we want you to be able to stay active without over stressing you to the point beyond which you can’t run without fear of doing damage.
I suggest to keep the mileage down this week, especially on the weekend. No need to run longer than two hours at this point.
If you’re worried about losing Fitness, you can certainly add some cycling to offset the last aerobic time. Just keep it at the same target heart rate that you would have run at.
As for the race, I would target and 840 pace. Follow the Pacing Guidance we have for you under resources/wiki/running. That gives you the Payson plan for success. Best case scenario you feel strong for the last 6 miles and can keep your heart rate up and earn some of the time you lost by not targeting 835s.
I will pull back a bit this week and can end up around 45 miles after running two hours tomorrow (I will cut back on the long-run tomorrow and the recovery run on Sunday.) I am already at 29 miles. For the intermediate balanced plan, this is the big peak mileage week. After this weekend, the plan has me tapering for the next two weeks.
When I wrote this I was sore from my 18-mile race rehearsal. However, as of today I feel very good. My legs actually feel fresh. No pain in the upper thigh, no pain in the heel and no pain in the knee. I did an easy 5-miler this morning and it felt great.
My left knee does feel different than my right knee though. I don’t know how to explain it, but I notice it during the first 5-10 minutes when I run, and then feel it again at the end of long runs. Maybe the knee cap is not tracking perfectly, or maybe there is a little bit of fluid in there. Maybe that is just what my post-surgery knee feels like because I had cartilage removed. In any event, it doesn’t hurt during the run or afterwards. I have been good about stretching and doing core this season, but maybe I need to incorporate some knee strengthening exercises next season.
8:40 seems like a good pace target. I have reviewed the marathon Wiki and will follow the guidelines there. I am not sure if I can run that fast, but I am eager to try.
Surprisingly, my current running is much better than last year, which was a very good running year for me. But I recognize that staying healthy is the key to improving. You can’t get faster if you are sidelined with an overuse injury.
Thanks. And again - congratulations for the great race at Kona. That was an impressive bike split and run.
OK, thank you for the update. I’m not sure if you’re still seeing physical therapy right now, or if you have a physical therapist connections, but I wonder if it’s worth it to explore using rock tape on your knee help stabilize the kneecap and help it track better?
I have use that several times where my knee starts to act up. Especially when my training load increases at the beginning of the year. Most of these issues are related to that Delta and training load. As long as you take steps to mitigate the swelling/discomfort you should be OK.
I finished last week at 44 miles, which will be my peak. Overall, I am feeling very good.
Regarding my knee, I will make an appointment with my orthopedist for after the marathon and get his view. My best guess is that I aggravated the knee and now have a little bit of synovial fluid in there. Hopefully it will flush out after I recover Philly. Also, I picked up a few more pairs of CWX running tights. These are designed to keep your kneecap aligned. Again, I have no pain. However, it just feels a bit different than my right knee.
Finally, as I am just about through my 2018 season, I am looking towards 2019. Right now, I am leaning towards pushing my next full IM to 2020. I've enjoyed the marathon training and it fits well with my parenting and work responsibilities. Also, my number one athletic goal now is to get faster in the marathon. Also, I have realized that I don't have that much more time with my kids before they are all out of the house. I have two boys in high school (sophomore and senior), and my daughter is sophomore in college. So, I think I would like to keep my summer schedule flexible. Therefore, I was thinking of doing:
March 2019: LA Marathon
June 2019: Eagleman 70.3
October 2019: Bay State Marathon
Assuming my orthopedist is OK with me running, and you agree with this calendar, would I go into December Outseason and use this time also keep my mileage high to run LA? Then, I could pivot to getting back in the water and train ~10 weeks to do Eagleman. Then, I would have about 18 weeks to get ready for Bay State.
I appreciate the big picture perspective you had. And I agree 100%. Fireman he’s not going anywhere!
That said, I do not agree with your plan to rest your knee but also jump right into the out season eight days after your marathon! How are you, I would plan on a later December with strength training and cross training on the bike to keep your Fitness app but allow your body to recover from the running. Especially because you not only want to continue running that distance but you want to get better at it as well.
There has to be some kind of give. We can absolutely have you stay strong, we just have to be smart and listen to your body.
Got it. I will plan to cross train and ride for at least a few weeks after the marathon.
Also, I made an appointment with my orthopedic surgeon; the consultation will take place one week after the marathon. I want to get his view on the best way to strengthen the knee. Then On December 1st, I am going to get an update on my tri-bike fitting so that I can get my cycling dialed-in over the winter.
On Thursday, I had the last hard run on my training plan. So I will be tapering for the next 10 days. I am feeling really good. Much to my surprise, I feel better now than I did when I first started to ramp up my mileage in September. Happily, I can say that I am faster now than I was before knee surgery.
I agree that we need to take this slowly. I’m 51 years old and want to be running and cycling for at least another 20 years.
Thanks for the update. And I agree on the slightly longer taper. You can do some short frequent runs and some rides at your typical run heart rate to stay active but that’s really it. Time to reflect on your race plan!
@Coach Patrick - The Philly marathon is three days away. I am tapered, stoked and ready to run.
My goal is to run at least an 8:45 pace, to get below a 3:50 total marathon time.
The EN marathon wiki-protocol calls for me to start out at 15 seconds below my target pace, or a 9:00 / mile pace, for the first five miles. I will try to keep my HR at average of 135 bpm.
From mile-6, I will shoot for an 8:40 pace until mile-20. For this long leg of the race, I will try to keep my HR below my LTHR of 148-150 (that's my estimated lactate threshold per my last three 5k time-trial runs). After mile-20, I will just try to run as best as I can.
For my nutrition, I plan to take a gel every 40-45 minutes, and two salt pills at hours 1, 2 and 3. I plan to eat initially around 4 am before the 7 am race. Then, I will eat a powerbar ~15 minutes before the gun goes off. I will start drinking after mile-5 and then grab something every two miles.
When should I take my first gel? I typically eat a gel a 90 minutes. However, should I eat one earlier for a standalone marathon?
Also, I need to figure out what to wear. It looks like it will be 32 degrees while we are in the corral, and then it will be about 42 degrees when we finish. Freeze in the beginning and get off to a slow start, or run the risk of overheating at the end...
I finished the Philly marathon this weekend. My official time was 3:48:20, which is a lifetime PR. The pace was 8:43, which was 2 seconds faster than my target.
The race went well. I had a negative split. However, I ran into a GI issue that cost me 1:20, or 3 seconds on my mile pace.
I woke up Sunday and noticed my urine wasn't clear, so I drank a lot of gatorade before the race. Right before the race, my mouth felt dry so I thought I was going into the race dehydrated; therefore, I drank gatorade at every stop for the first 10 miles. At mile 11, I realized that the gels and gatorade were not sitting well, and thus I had to take an unplanned pitstop. I tried to stay positive, and was grateful for the opportunity to lower my heart rate while I stopped.
I also ran into an issue with my Garmin. It showed that I ran 26.6 miles, at an 8:31 pace. Thus, I had a hard time figuring out how hard to push at the end because I wasn't sure how far I was from the finish line, and my Garmin was showing that I was already well ahead of my target pace.
Despite the GI and Garmin issues, I felt very strong for nearly the entire race. I was disciplined, and my first two miles were my slowest (despite getting dropped by the 3:50 pace group early on). My focus started to get choppy from mile 22, but at that point I was consistently identifying people to pass one at a time. My last mile was at 8:13.
I think under "perfect" conditions, I could have run as fast as a ~3:45 marathon, or an 8:35 pace. My last marathon in 2014 was 3:57, so I am pleased with my progress, especially given last year's knee surgery.
It's been three days since the marathon, and I am feeling good. (Although yesterday morning I wasn't fond of descending stairs.)
I plan to goof off for the next two weeks, and then start working on my strength and flexibility. At the end of the month, I will have a consultation with my orthopedist to get my knee checked out.
When can I jump into out season training?
I am planning on doing the LA marathon in mid-March. This will be my "C" race for the year. It will be a social event. Then, I will do Eagleman. In the fall, I want to run a fast marathon course and see if I can shave 10-15 minutes from this year's marathon time.
Man, I am so pumped for you! It’s not easy executing a marathon so closely to your plan. As always, things do come up but I think you handle them very well. Those are things that you can’t account for. The last-minute hydration thing is pretty common. That’s usually a function of nerves. If you being hydrated up and to the race, then you are hydrated. So maybe we look at your prerace hydration protocols.
The difference and GPS is usually due to leaving throughout the course to aid stations in between other competitors. The best thing to do is to focus only on how much is left by using the mile markers. Those don’t lie, and the race is always 26.2 miles!
Two weeks of downtime is absolutely required. I would plan on another two weeks of just easing back into it. In an ideal world, you get serious again after the Christmas holidays. Keep the belt nice and snug on those pants, and stay active without running for two weeks. Your body will thank you moving forward!
Thanks! It felt good to hit my race targets. I am wrapping my second week of downtime - lots of yoga, core and other out-season body maintenance. Right now I feel great. Any stiffness, pain or fatigue from this season is completely gone.
Yesterday, I saw my orthopedist. The knee is fine, but the doctor thinks what I felt was the knee-cartilage loosing its smoothness. Not much I can do about that except lose weight, strengthen the knee and stretch. He also looked at my hip. There is some impingement being caused by the shape/size of the ball on top of my femur - the ball is relatively large compared to the hip socket, and some impingement happens when the hip completely compresses (i.e, when my knee comes towards my chest). He agreed with my intuition - my hip pain back in August-September probably came from my tri-bike fitting. This morning was my bike fitting. We moved the seat up about an inch, and aft/forward about a half inch. It makes a big difference - there is much less hip compression with my new fitting. The doctors orders were: a) if it hurts, stop b) lose weight/strengthen the knee/keep working on hip/hamstring flexibility and c) come back for a consultation if the knee swells, or if the hip pain becomes chronic (i.e., won't go away after resting it). Otherwise, he gave me a clean bill of health and was fine with me continuing to run.
Here's my plan for the season. Let me know what you think:
December - Continue to ease into training. Bike. Run. Hike. Yoga. Ski with my kids.
January - Start on the OS training. I also want to climb Mt. Washington again. That requires a full day of hiking and a full recovery day.
February - Start transitioning into heavier running
March - LA Marathon at a relatively slow pace of 4 hours. Just want to do it as a bucket-list event and treat it more like a C-race. It will be a relatively social run with my brother and with my girlfriend.
March - Get back in the pool after the marathon
March-June - Triathlon training
June - Eagleman. This would be my 2019 B-Race
June-August - Focus on cycling, but start building running volume at low intensity
August - Find a hard Century ride. This would be a C-Race. This would allow me to get 2-3 months of heavy cycling to build my cardio in preparation for a fall marathon.
August-October - Marathon training. Will target to hit 50 miles for my peak-week. This year, I hit 45 miles without getting any repetition injuries.
October/November - A-Race for 2019 - Find a flat marathon course in the NE. Maybe Bay State in Mass. I will target a pace that is halfway between my current marathon time and my age group BQ time - i.e., I would target 8:15-8:20/mile.
Then, I will be shoot for a BQ in 2020. For that, I need to be able to run a marathon at 7:55/mile.
Tha is for the update. You can also go to shorter crankarms too to reduce that compression.
Love the progression for your year. Don’t underestimate the value of core work in Dec; and just keep the aerobic stuff going (regardless of the sport you choose).
I just signed up for the LA Marathon and Eagleman. Now, I need to finalize a selection for a late summer cycling event and a fall marathon.
I am roughly 100 days out from the LA marathon, so I am now pivoting away from recovery mode and back into training mode. I feel great. However, I am unfortunately about 10-15 pounds from race weight. Therefore, I will start weighing myself everyday and shoot to lose a half pound a week. Also, I have been pretty good about doing 15 minutes of core/stretching at least four days a week. It seems to make a big difference - much less soreness in the morning and I feel stronger when I run.
Finally, I have loaded the run durability plan to last through the rest of 2019. Then, I will do five weeks of the January Outseason. From there, I will load the balanced marathon plan (starting February 10th, which is also my kids' winter break, when I will likely not have access to a bike). After the LA marathon, I will do swim camp for one week, and then can squeeze in 10 weeks of HIM training before Eagleman.
Here are my "official" goals for the year:
1300 miles of running, which is roughly 10% more than 2018
3250 miles on the bike, which is roughly the same as 2018
Reach a peak running volume of 50 miles per week during the fall marathon build. This is five more miles than the 45 mile peak I reached in 2018
Run my fall marathon at an 8:15/mile pace. That is about 20 seconds faster than what I did in 2018.
Get down to 166 lbs for the fall marathon. This would be 2 lbs less than what I weighed for IMLP in 2017
@Patrick Marsh - Holy organization Batman! I love it. My favorite part is when you said you’re ready to get back into training mode, and you go to the run durability plan like a pro. Do you make your coach proud.
Don’t worry about the body calm, and weighing yourself every day is generally not that effective. Whatever works for you, let’s roll with it. I think the increase in running and training time will eventually help you turn the corner. Once you start burning calories there will be no looking back.
I just want to be clear with you that increasing run volume whether it’s annual distance or weekly mileage is that the only key to getting faster. In our world, running frequency is the number one option for Improved Running strength and speed. At least as the foundation. You might be able to work in some flavor of a little streak in January depending on how things play out. I don’t forget the benefit of a bike volume week or block in the middle of year. Perhaps after eagle man as a break from the run but it’s just a challenge yourself significantly From an aerobic standpoint. I look forward to following your progress!
Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually Monday & Friday each week.
Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply.
I'd like you to keep up your core / self care stuff through the Spring; I think it will really help you out across your year. And we'll want you to go ALL IN on the bike for Eagleman to complement your early season run training and get you ready.
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Last updated by Coach on 01/07/2019
On 12/31/2018 Load the OutSeason (Bike Focus) Plan, 14wks to end on 04/07/2019
On 2/10/2019 Load the Marathon [Balanced], 24 Weeks to end on 3/24/2019
On 3/25/2019 Load the Post Marathon / Half Marathon Plan (2wks) to end on 04/07/2019
On 4/8/2019 Load the EN Half Bike Focused to end on 06/09/2019
On 6/10/2019 Load the Post Half Iron Transition Plan, All Levels (2wks) to end on 06/23/2019
On 6/24/2019 Load the Get Faster Training Plan, 10wks to end on 09/01/2019
On 7/29/2019 Load the Marathon [Balanced], 24 Weeks to end on 10/06/2019
On 10/7/2019 Load the Post Marathon / Half Marathon Plan (2wks) to end on 10/20/2019
Your Notes
Gearing up for a run-focused yearFinished Philly marathon in Nov'18 with a lifetime PR of 3:48.
Finally, I have loaded the run durability plan to last through the rest of 2019. Then, I will do five weeks of the January Outseason. From there, I will load the balanced marathon plan (starting February 10th, which is also my kids' winter break, when I will likely not have access to a bike). After the LA marathon, I will do swim camp for one week, and then can squeeze in 10 weeks of HIM training before Eagleman.
Comments
@Coach Patrick
I have a question about alternating my 3-hour race rehearsal for a half-marathon.
I am starting my fourth week of training, and I will be up to 35 miles of volume. I am happy to announce that I am feeling good. This past weekend, I did 15 miles at 8:54 on a hilly course in Central Park. I am hoping to run Philly at a pace in the 8:30-8:45 area. Thus summer, I was doing my 12-14-milers at a 9:30 pace as part of my triathlon training. So, I think that I am making progress.
In my last post on this thread, I suggested running a popular trail run near my home. However, I think there is some risk of tripping on a rock or root. Moreover, I think that I want to test my fitness in a flat half-marathon course. Therefore, I could do the Hartford half-marathon, which is five weeks from the Philly marathon. This would be the same weekend as my scheduled 3-hour race rehearsal.
Should I sign up for this and see how fast I can run? Then, I would have a better idea of how to pace myself at Philly.
Alternatively, if running a hard half-marathon would set me back then I could do the trail half-marathon at a more leisurely pace. (The trail-marathon is six weeks before Philly.)
I am OK with you doing the half marathon, but I would want you to run it at half marathon pace. In other words, I would like it to be a little challenging for you and not just 13 miles of marathon running.
according to Jack Daniels, you should be able to run a half marathon around 828 pace per mile. so I would be OK with you challenging yourself to raise the piece, using a proper pacing plan for a half, as part of your builder. We could easily add another easy longer run to the following week to get volume in if needed. Here is the chart I was using.
@Coach Patrick
It looks like the Hartford HM won't be in the cards. It required a September 1st registration to get a race packet via mail. (It will be impossible for me to get there during the week to pick up my number).
That leaves me with three choices a) Trail HM on October 7(the week before my race rehearsal) b) Westchester HM (the week of my race rehearsal) or c) just proceed with the plan as is but without an actual race during these last seven weeks of training.
I am inclined to choose option a) but will defer to your judgement.
I would like to do an actual HM race to break up the monotony of my long Saturday run. The trail HM is technical and has lots of shorty punchy hills, so it will be slow but challenging. However, the pacing won't be anything like what I need for Philly. But it will also allow me to stick with the schedule as is (with a full race rehearsal the following week).
The Westchester HM is on a local parkway that is shaded, smoothly paved and well supported; but the course has lots of rolling hills. Thus, my pacing would not be like what Philly would require. It would also require that I move the race rehearsal run or delete it from my training plan.
Either of the HM race options will give me good HR data and will improve my aerobic profile.
My training has been going OK. I was getting much faster, and even doing 12-14 mile training runs in the 8:45 area (compared with 9:30 when I am training for triathlons). However, the last two weeks haven't been great. I am having a hard time picking up the pace at the end of my long runs. The past two weeks, my HR was getting into the 160s at the end of my run, but I was only running at 8:50-8:55. My plan had me descending below 8:30 at the end of my run.
I doing my long runs near the beach by my house. It is a bit monotonous, but I have access to a bathroom, the course is consistently flat and there are very few cars.
Having a high HR is not something I have experienced since I started training for triathlons. When I am0 cycling heavily, I cannot run fast because my legs feel heavy. However, my HR would stay in the 140s or maybe reach the low 150s. Now, my legs feel fresher, but my HR is reaching the high 160s-low 170s on some of my longer tempo efforts. I believe that my maximum theoretical HR is in the 180-182 area.
Long story short, I feel like my running is transforming from a defensive triathlon profile to more of a runners' form. However, I feel like I have hit a plateau over the past two weeks.
I am not too worried, but I am realizing that a BQ is going to be a multi-year journey. The metabolic profile, strength, body composition, stride-length and run efficiency required to get to a 7:50 M-pace are well beyond my current state. However, I am seeing improvements in my form, ability to hold long tempo paces and in my ability to run hills. But given my recent run data, it looks like I should be targeting a slightly slower pace at Philly.
I ran 37 miles this week. That is a multi-year peak for me. Nevertheless, I have been increasing my mileage conservatively. I am generally pain free. My feet are getting sore when I take my first steps of the day, and I feel a little bit of pressure under my kneecap. However, I have no pain when I run, and no pain afterwards. There is no pain in my knee before, during or after my runs.
Thank you for the update! I like the trail half marathon for you I some variety. Given what you mentioned about the long runs and your heart rate, it sounds like you could use a little variety in terms of training stimulus.
Sometimes going back and putting that same level of work out again and again can be too much for your assistance with this award. Honestly, that’s what I feel like we are seeing here. You have done the work, but the overall chronic fatigue is such that you need a little more rest. This trail half marathon should be just what the doctor ordered. You get a good workout in, you cannot be obsessed for time, and you can return to your regular training with enough time before the race.
@Coach Patrick
Just checking back in as my Philly marathon reaches its peak this week. Also, I need a recommendation on pacing for the marathon.
Last week, I ran ~42 miles. This week the training plan jumps up quite a bit with longer tempo runs, so that my target mileage is 48 miles. Then next week I start tapering.
This past weekend, I did my second 18-mile race rehearsal. I ran it at an 8:59/mile pace, and across hillier terrain than Philly, which is pretty flat. I was working towards descending miles the whole way, but I had a several hills towards the end of the run that prevented me from descending to the 18th mile.
So far, I am feeling good. My knee is pain-free, but I feel a slight bit of pressure under the kneecap. I am assuming that there is some fluid in there, but it is not causing pain or mobility issues. However, on longer runs, my left knee (that had the problem last year) feels different than the right knee. The only way I can describe it is that it feels like there is some slight pressure under the kneecap. Also, I am feeling some occasional pain on the interior part of upper thigh, where my right hip connects to my pelvis, as well as some tightness in my Achilles tendon. Yesterday, I felt sore after my 18-miler, but I am very happy to say that I was essentially pain-free when I got out of bed this morning. Over the past few years, I have felt quite banged up from running, but this year I feel consistently good despite heavy mileage and frequent interval workouts.
Also, I need to determine my pacing for the marathon. I think that I am capable of running somewhere between an 3:50 and 3:45. That translates to something like an 8:46 to 8:35/mile. The 8:35 is aspirational, while the 8:46 seems reasonable. I think that I would have a VDOT of 42 with rest (my last VDOT was 41 on a 5K after a heavy several days of running, and the test was taken in the dark on a road that required a headlamp) and an 8:46 corresponds to a VDOT of 40. Also, my girlfriend just ran Chicago in 8:53/mile, and I am generally about 10 seconds faster than she is.
This past weekend between miles 9 and 15, I was running 8:37-8:40s at HRs between 145 and 150 bpm. (This was before I hit the hills at the end of my run. ) According to my last VDOT test, my lactate threshold was 149 bpm. The previous two tests were 152, and 148 bpm.
Therefore, I think it is reasonable for me to shoot for an 8:46 pace, and hope that I can go faster.
Finally, I have the opportunity to run the LA marathon with my brother and my girlfriend in 21 weeks. I am inclined to do it, provided that my next 2.5 weeks of training go well.
Thanks so much for checking in! Honestly, I think that trying to peek out at 48 miles is a bad idea. I think your body is already pushing back at this point we want you to be able to stay active without over stressing you to the point beyond which you can’t run without fear of doing damage.
I suggest to keep the mileage down this week, especially on the weekend. No need to run longer than two hours at this point.
If you’re worried about losing Fitness, you can certainly add some cycling to offset the last aerobic time. Just keep it at the same target heart rate that you would have run at.
As for the race, I would target and 840 pace. Follow the Pacing Guidance we have for you under resources/wiki/running. That gives you the Payson plan for success. Best case scenario you feel strong for the last 6 miles and can keep your heart rate up and earn some of the time you lost by not targeting 835s.
Keep me posted on how you feel
I will pull back a bit this week and can end up around 45 miles after running two hours tomorrow (I will cut back on the long-run tomorrow and the recovery run on Sunday.) I am already at 29 miles. For the intermediate balanced plan, this is the big peak mileage week. After this weekend, the plan has me tapering for the next two weeks.
When I wrote this I was sore from my 18-mile race rehearsal. However, as of today I feel very good. My legs actually feel fresh. No pain in the upper thigh, no pain in the heel and no pain in the knee. I did an easy 5-miler this morning and it felt great.
My left knee does feel different than my right knee though. I don’t know how to explain it, but I notice it during the first 5-10 minutes when I run, and then feel it again at the end of long runs. Maybe the knee cap is not tracking perfectly, or maybe there is a little bit of fluid in there. Maybe that is just what my post-surgery knee feels like because I had cartilage removed. In any event, it doesn’t hurt during the run or afterwards. I have been good about stretching and doing core this season, but maybe I need to incorporate some knee strengthening exercises next season.
8:40 seems like a good pace target. I have reviewed the marathon Wiki and will follow the guidelines there. I am not sure if I can run that fast, but I am eager to try.
Surprisingly, my current running is much better than last year, which was a very good running year for me. But I recognize that staying healthy is the key to improving. You can’t get faster if you are sidelined with an overuse injury.
Thanks. And again - congratulations for the great race at Kona. That was an impressive bike split and run.
Hope that you have a great weekend.
OK, thank you for the update. I’m not sure if you’re still seeing physical therapy right now, or if you have a physical therapist connections, but I wonder if it’s worth it to explore using rock tape on your knee help stabilize the kneecap and help it track better?
I have use that several times where my knee starts to act up. Especially when my training load increases at the beginning of the year. Most of these issues are related to that Delta and training load. As long as you take steps to mitigate the swelling/discomfort you should be OK.
@Coach Patrick
I finished last week at 44 miles, which will be my peak. Overall, I am feeling very good.
Regarding my knee, I will make an appointment with my orthopedist for after the marathon and get his view. My best guess is that I aggravated the knee and now have a little bit of synovial fluid in there. Hopefully it will flush out after I recover Philly. Also, I picked up a few more pairs of CWX running tights. These are designed to keep your kneecap aligned. Again, I have no pain. However, it just feels a bit different than my right knee.
Finally, as I am just about through my 2018 season, I am looking towards 2019. Right now, I am leaning towards pushing my next full IM to 2020. I've enjoyed the marathon training and it fits well with my parenting and work responsibilities. Also, my number one athletic goal now is to get faster in the marathon. Also, I have realized that I don't have that much more time with my kids before they are all out of the house. I have two boys in high school (sophomore and senior), and my daughter is sophomore in college. So, I think I would like to keep my summer schedule flexible. Therefore, I was thinking of doing:
Assuming my orthopedist is OK with me running, and you agree with this calendar, would I go into December Outseason and use this time also keep my mileage high to run LA? Then, I could pivot to getting back in the water and train ~10 weeks to do Eagleman. Then, I would have about 18 weeks to get ready for Bay State.
I appreciate the big picture perspective you had. And I agree 100%. Fireman he’s not going anywhere!
That said, I do not agree with your plan to rest your knee but also jump right into the out season eight days after your marathon! How are you, I would plan on a later December with strength training and cross training on the bike to keep your Fitness app but allow your body to recover from the running. Especially because you not only want to continue running that distance but you want to get better at it as well.
There has to be some kind of give. We can absolutely have you stay strong, we just have to be smart and listen to your body.
Got it. I will plan to cross train and ride for at least a few weeks after the marathon.
Also, I made an appointment with my orthopedic surgeon; the consultation will take place one week after the marathon. I want to get his view on the best way to strengthen the knee. Then On December 1st, I am going to get an update on my tri-bike fitting so that I can get my cycling dialed-in over the winter.
On Thursday, I had the last hard run on my training plan. So I will be tapering for the next 10 days. I am feeling really good. Much to my surprise, I feel better now than I did when I first started to ramp up my mileage in September. Happily, I can say that I am faster now than I was before knee surgery.
I agree that we need to take this slowly. I’m 51 years old and want to be running and cycling for at least another 20 years.
Thanks for the update. And I agree on the slightly longer taper. You can do some short frequent runs and some rides at your typical run heart rate to stay active but that’s really it. Time to reflect on your race plan!
@Coach Patrick - The Philly marathon is three days away. I am tapered, stoked and ready to run.
My goal is to run at least an 8:45 pace, to get below a 3:50 total marathon time.
The EN marathon wiki-protocol calls for me to start out at 15 seconds below my target pace, or a 9:00 / mile pace, for the first five miles. I will try to keep my HR at average of 135 bpm.
From mile-6, I will shoot for an 8:40 pace until mile-20. For this long leg of the race, I will try to keep my HR below my LTHR of 148-150 (that's my estimated lactate threshold per my last three 5k time-trial runs). After mile-20, I will just try to run as best as I can.
For my nutrition, I plan to take a gel every 40-45 minutes, and two salt pills at hours 1, 2 and 3. I plan to eat initially around 4 am before the 7 am race. Then, I will eat a powerbar ~15 minutes before the gun goes off. I will start drinking after mile-5 and then grab something every two miles.
When should I take my first gel? I typically eat a gel a 90 minutes. However, should I eat one earlier for a standalone marathon?
Also, I need to figure out what to wear. It looks like it will be 32 degrees while we are in the corral, and then it will be about 42 degrees when we finish. Freeze in the beginning and get off to a slow start, or run the risk of overheating at the end...
@Coach Patrick
I finished the Philly marathon this weekend. My official time was 3:48:20, which is a lifetime PR. The pace was 8:43, which was 2 seconds faster than my target.
The race went well. I had a negative split. However, I ran into a GI issue that cost me 1:20, or 3 seconds on my mile pace.
I woke up Sunday and noticed my urine wasn't clear, so I drank a lot of gatorade before the race. Right before the race, my mouth felt dry so I thought I was going into the race dehydrated; therefore, I drank gatorade at every stop for the first 10 miles. At mile 11, I realized that the gels and gatorade were not sitting well, and thus I had to take an unplanned pitstop. I tried to stay positive, and was grateful for the opportunity to lower my heart rate while I stopped.
I also ran into an issue with my Garmin. It showed that I ran 26.6 miles, at an 8:31 pace. Thus, I had a hard time figuring out how hard to push at the end because I wasn't sure how far I was from the finish line, and my Garmin was showing that I was already well ahead of my target pace.
Despite the GI and Garmin issues, I felt very strong for nearly the entire race. I was disciplined, and my first two miles were my slowest (despite getting dropped by the 3:50 pace group early on). My focus started to get choppy from mile 22, but at that point I was consistently identifying people to pass one at a time. My last mile was at 8:13.
I think under "perfect" conditions, I could have run as fast as a ~3:45 marathon, or an 8:35 pace. My last marathon in 2014 was 3:57, so I am pleased with my progress, especially given last year's knee surgery.
It's been three days since the marathon, and I am feeling good. (Although yesterday morning I wasn't fond of descending stairs.)
I plan to goof off for the next two weeks, and then start working on my strength and flexibility. At the end of the month, I will have a consultation with my orthopedist to get my knee checked out.
When can I jump into out season training?
I am planning on doing the LA marathon in mid-March. This will be my "C" race for the year. It will be a social event. Then, I will do Eagleman. In the fall, I want to run a fast marathon course and see if I can shave 10-15 minutes from this year's marathon time.
Man, I am so pumped for you! It’s not easy executing a marathon so closely to your plan. As always, things do come up but I think you handle them very well. Those are things that you can’t account for. The last-minute hydration thing is pretty common. That’s usually a function of nerves. If you being hydrated up and to the race, then you are hydrated. So maybe we look at your prerace hydration protocols.
The difference and GPS is usually due to leaving throughout the course to aid stations in between other competitors. The best thing to do is to focus only on how much is left by using the mile markers. Those don’t lie, and the race is always 26.2 miles!
Two weeks of downtime is absolutely required. I would plan on another two weeks of just easing back into it. In an ideal world, you get serious again after the Christmas holidays. Keep the belt nice and snug on those pants, and stay active without running for two weeks. Your body will thank you moving forward!
@Coach Patrick
Thanks! It felt good to hit my race targets. I am wrapping my second week of downtime - lots of yoga, core and other out-season body maintenance. Right now I feel great. Any stiffness, pain or fatigue from this season is completely gone.
Yesterday, I saw my orthopedist. The knee is fine, but the doctor thinks what I felt was the knee-cartilage loosing its smoothness. Not much I can do about that except lose weight, strengthen the knee and stretch. He also looked at my hip. There is some impingement being caused by the shape/size of the ball on top of my femur - the ball is relatively large compared to the hip socket, and some impingement happens when the hip completely compresses (i.e, when my knee comes towards my chest). He agreed with my intuition - my hip pain back in August-September probably came from my tri-bike fitting. This morning was my bike fitting. We moved the seat up about an inch, and aft/forward about a half inch. It makes a big difference - there is much less hip compression with my new fitting. The doctors orders were: a) if it hurts, stop b) lose weight/strengthen the knee/keep working on hip/hamstring flexibility and c) come back for a consultation if the knee swells, or if the hip pain becomes chronic (i.e., won't go away after resting it). Otherwise, he gave me a clean bill of health and was fine with me continuing to run.
Here's my plan for the season. Let me know what you think:
Tha is for the update. You can also go to shorter crankarms too to reduce that compression.
Love the progression for your year. Don’t underestimate the value of core work in Dec; and just keep the aerobic stuff going (regardless of the sport you choose).
Mill be standing by as you need more help.
~ Coach P
@Coach Patrick
I just signed up for the LA Marathon and Eagleman. Now, I need to finalize a selection for a late summer cycling event and a fall marathon.
I am roughly 100 days out from the LA marathon, so I am now pivoting away from recovery mode and back into training mode. I feel great. However, I am unfortunately about 10-15 pounds from race weight. Therefore, I will start weighing myself everyday and shoot to lose a half pound a week. Also, I have been pretty good about doing 15 minutes of core/stretching at least four days a week. It seems to make a big difference - much less soreness in the morning and I feel stronger when I run.
Finally, I have loaded the run durability plan to last through the rest of 2019. Then, I will do five weeks of the January Outseason. From there, I will load the balanced marathon plan (starting February 10th, which is also my kids' winter break, when I will likely not have access to a bike). After the LA marathon, I will do swim camp for one week, and then can squeeze in 10 weeks of HIM training before Eagleman.
Here are my "official" goals for the year:
@Patrick Marsh - Holy organization Batman! I love it. My favorite part is when you said you’re ready to get back into training mode, and you go to the run durability plan like a pro. Do you make your coach proud.
Don’t worry about the body calm, and weighing yourself every day is generally not that effective. Whatever works for you, let’s roll with it. I think the increase in running and training time will eventually help you turn the corner. Once you start burning calories there will be no looking back.
I just want to be clear with you that increasing run volume whether it’s annual distance or weekly mileage is that the only key to getting faster. In our world, running frequency is the number one option for Improved Running strength and speed. At least as the foundation. You might be able to work in some flavor of a little streak in January depending on how things play out. I don’t forget the benefit of a bike volume week or block in the middle of year. Perhaps after eagle man as a break from the run but it’s just a challenge yourself significantly From an aerobic standpoint. I look forward to following your progress!
@Patrick Marsh
Here's your updated Season Plan, as promised. This is where you'll return to post all your "coach" questions as responses; I'll see them and reply. This first post is my best outline of how to proceed with your races, but you can ask any / all questions you want. So post away, know that I reply here usually Monday & Friday each week.
Power User Tip: Click the Star icon by the Title of this thread to subscribe, and you'll get email updates when I do reply.
Coach Notes
OK sir, I have built our your season with the start you specified into a slightly different end. As you roll through your year, you'll have to get crafty with your Final Surge Log, here's how you can load specific weeks: https://www.endurancenation.us/help/loading-specific-plan-weeks-into-your-final-surge-calendar/
I'd like you to keep up your core / self care stuff through the Spring; I think it will really help you out across your year. And we'll want you to go ALL IN on the bike for Eagleman to complement your early season run training and get you ready.
Let me know what you think!
Your Races
Season Update
These are your recommended training plans, including the date you should start each one (sometimes you won’t complete a full plan but transition to another one). You can change your plans on the Training Plan page by clicking the Move / Change button. Learn more about each plan on the Training Plan Central Page.
Your Notes
Gearing up for a run-focused yearFinished Philly marathon in Nov'18 with a lifetime PR of 3:48.
Finally, I have loaded the run durability plan to last through the rest of 2019. Then, I will do five weeks of the January Outseason. From there, I will load the balanced marathon plan (starting February 10th, which is also my kids' winter break, when I will likely not have access to a bike). After the LA marathon, I will do swim camp for one week, and then can squeeze in 10 weeks of HIM training before Eagleman.
Let's get to work!
~ Coach P