Need your feedback on Ideal CTL/TSB for IM Race Day

Shaughn Simmons

 

Below, I have posted my planned CTL/ATL/TSB for IMWI based on where I am today and what I plan to do in the taper days leading up to 9/11.

On 9/10 my CTL would be ~152.6 and my TSB 50.1.   My baselines in terms of FTP and vDOT / swim test have been updated meticulously for this cycle.

Is 50.1 to much rest?  Should it be lower/higher?  This would also me going in with an ATL at 91......is that OK given a fitness level or CTL of ~152?

Should I taper less or more?  All thoughts / perspectives welcome and wanted.

 

 

Thank you,

SS

 

Dave Tallo

Shaughn, how do you feel? Give yourself a honest one of five on, say, overall fatigue, mood, focus /concentration, muscle fatigue, sharpness, and restedness. Add a few others in the list if you think they are useful markers of recovery. I think this exercise might be more valuable than achieving a specific number, and done honestly, can probably give you greater insight into where you are heading into race week/race day. (Though I'm sure that there is a prescribed number, I think these subjective measures are probably a closer gauge ... kind of like rate of perceived exertion).

Mike Roberts

SS,

I'm with Dave - you probably know by feel how you perform when you're tired (-20), in a hole (-30) and buried (-50) and hopefully the same when you get above that no-man's land transitional phase (-10 to +10) and higher. I've done an IM at +50 and I felt a little flat (wasn't sore the day after cuz I don't think I ever put out the full effort). Friel likes +15 to +25. He says anything north of that can produce a flat day. So, I aim for +20 and feel good about that territory. For me. But you're a steady big-volume guy whereas I'm a steady mid-volume guy with a 6-week spike, so I may need more rest, and you may be fine at +5 to +10. If you aren't confident that your best wko's have been around ___ TSB, then I would play it safe and target +15 to +25. My other taper goal, besides subbing some intensity for volume, is to make sure I never go 48 hrs between any S, B or R. I wanna stay fresh, nothing feeling "new" on race day.

MR

Francis Picard

Still learning on how to interpret all this data on my side with PMC and etc.. But I would follow what Dave said, you know how you feel depending the figures.

I know on my side (actually at +53 TSB (141.4CTL), I feel couch potato and starting to wish I could resume training soon..)

Douglas Sutherland

I try to keep my CTL around 70 or so going into a race.

This is kinda like looking at other peoples checking accounts.

Mark Maurer

II was just reading this race plan by WSM Shaughn Simmons and he said,  "Race Day is about EXECUTION, not fitness". I would listen to that guy, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. Seriously, you've done the work. At this point there's nothing more that you can do to win the race but you sure can do things to lose it. I watched a webinar on TP last winter and it was about ramp rates, CTL, TSB, etc. and they said that to KQ you had to have a  CTL of 150 (you're there brother) and I think they had some recommendations for TSB as well but I don't remember that. I went into the training year thinking I would maintain a ramp rate of X and end up around 120-130. Two weeks before CDA I topped out at 97. But I knew that I knew how to execute and that was worth a lot more than another 20-30 CTL points IMO. I know that you're in a different age group and all, but take your own advice, start slow, build over the day and run down all of your competitors. YOUR JOB NOW IS TO GET TO THE START LINE HEALTHY AND WELL RESTED. Let the legs and body absorb all the work it did and you will crush them. 

tim cronk

SS- I played around with Apollo RaceDay Software in conjunction with TP several years ago. Apollo uses metrics similar to ATL, CTL, TSB and tracks your training/racing with the idea of predicting specific best case scenario tapers for the individual and each sport.... I thought this was great in theory but poor in actual application ... Going over my TSB/CTL number for a bunch of IM's I have found NO correlation to actual execution/results... Here they are and as you can see they are all over the road.... 15/159 , 25/ 134 , 56/162 , 11/135 , 64/162 , 55/149 , 42/158 , 37/154.... The lowest TSB of 11 and the highest TSB of 64 were both a couple of my best races ever.... The last number of TSB 37 was IMLP last year.... Those numbers include SBR , one thing I am doing this year is removing the Swim(just too many variables with toys, wetsuits, currents etc to make these numbers truly accurate IMO) and just tracking Bike/Run (still tracking SBR all separately) .... IMO specially with your experience, bottomline , go by feel , decrease time/increase intensity just a little , during the last week of taper I like to make sure I get 2 days off for each sport while alternating the taper thru the other 2 , and always always always take a less is more approach and try not to target a specific number. Good Skill at IMWI :-)

JeremyBehler

SS - I agree with Tim that 1)it's very specific to the individual and 2) even for the individual it's only loosely correlated with performance.

I can tell you this...for IMWI last year I executed an almost perfect race for my fitness (barring the bike crash).  I peaked at 142 CTL about two weeks out and entered race day with a 59 TSB.  So no...I don't think a 50 TSB is too low at all.   I'm a believer in a very strong, intentional taper (read...not doing much the week before the race).  For example, I swam once, rode once (20 miles), and ran once (2 miles).   This was a bit softer than I'd normally do, but I believe you can only do harm on race week.    The more you bike and run the more chance of a crash, twisted ankle, etc.    Embrace the taper.  It sucks mentally and your body doesn't know why you are being so 'lazy' but in my experience it sets me up for the best race day performance. 

Shaughn Simmons

Wow, incredibly valuable feedback from everyone on this chain.

Thank you, each of you, for taking the time to read and respond and provide wise perspective here.  I'm not a fast IM racer, but I am going to be that much faster just from the support and advice I find hear.

I have felt pretty crappy since Sunday's grand finale mostly from a mental vs. a physical perspective.  Mentally, there is fatigue in there making it hard to be driven, but once I start into the wko, the body seems to respond. 

I do not race enough to be good at racing nor do I have an exceptionally high V02.  I do have a strong constitution and a reasonable ability to suffer without letting it me distract me from using the cards that I have.

Based on your feedback, I have adjusted/tweaked the taper, brought the math TSB down to 32 and left myself some cushion to over deliver a bit this week. Tim and Dave's input to go by feel at this point is one of my primary focal points.  Again thank you.

Gordon Cherwoniak

SS,

The only thoughts I can add at this point about less/more is based on comment of your mind not wanting to do the workouts.  At this point I think less is better and I like the changes to reflect this.  I'm not sure you have the metrics from previous races or assessment that Dave was talking about but it did get me thinking about your cumulative work load coming in and how that might require more rest.  Have you done more this year than for previous IM races?  What was the race schedule like prior to this IM?

On further side note to what Jeremy said.  There is a point where you can do too little which I found once by doing only a couple swims and one run in the 10 day prior to a shorter races 1.5K/55K/15K odd distanced race and came in feeling flat.  I don't think this will be an issues for you but I had to take a chunk of days off in a row finishing with a short run on the day prior to the race.  This was the only time I've felt this going in to a race of any distance.

Gordon

Coach Rich

What I did last year:

• Got my CTL up as high as I could get it through consistent, consistent training. I think my peak was 185-190 before I started my taper.
• One rub of the charts, and who knows how accurate it all is, is that when you get your CTL up very high, it also drops down very quickly once you start to drop your training and volume off. So if you consider that CTL = the amount of work you've trained your body to absorb after month and months of doing WORK, then if you drop off your volume precipitously during taper, your body adapts by losing fitness. This is what I feel happened to me in '11, I felt like I rested too hard and had lost a bit of fitness by race day. 
• So last year I modeled out separate swim, bike, and run tapers by creating charts for each separate sport, estimating TSS points for each workout, etc. I had race day goal CTL's for swim, bike, and run that I wanted to hit and I wasn't worried too much about a TSB goal. 

Finally, note that ^this^ experimentation by Patrick and I last year, namely sport-specific tapers, was incorporated into our '16 rewrite of the EN*Full training plans. 

So, yes, while less can be more, my experience is that if you built up a very, very high CTL then dropping off that CTL too sharply can have you losing a bit of fitness before the race. 

Al Truscott

Shaughn - you've couched your question in PMC terms; I feel like you're asking, "What's the best way to structure my taper to minimize fitness loss while being as fresh as possible @ 0700 9/10?" Trying to answer that by looking solely at the PMC is like trying to describe someone's face using only his shadow for guidance.

We (here @ EN) have good formulas for how much and what type of work is needed to prepare for an Ironman, and for how to best pace the efforts in swim/bike/run during the IM to race to one's potential. But I don't think we've found a formula for designing the perfect taper. Meaning it probably doesn't exist, or the coaches and the team would have the answer by now.

So what's a poor athlete to do? I think you've gotta rely a little bit on the numbers:

• A positive TSB is better than a negative one, probably somewhere in the 10-40 range works best for 95+% of us.
• Higher CTLs are better going into the race, as tempered by the
• Ramp: how rapidly has the CTL been going up. Increasing the ramp in the last 2 weeks before the taper may not be the best approach, IMO. Better to just see a steady rise, maybe even a plateau.
• When looking at the numbers, the CTL/ATL/TSB for any one day is not nearly as helpful as the trend and average over the preceding several weeks.. Smooth out the curve, in your mind at least. On your chart, e.g., within a week's time, your TSB went from close to zero down to 50.
• For me, at least, I've had the best IM performances when I have done 5-9 hours of training in the six days before the race.

But more important, IMO, is how you *feel*. Again, this is my opinion, since I guide both my training and my racing by first asking myself, "How am I feeling right now?" compared to what I think is ideal or that point in the training cycle or race. So, I know it's OK to have one or two days of maybe doing nothing or maybe just a light session in the weight room, in the 48 hours after my final RR. And I know that I feel better in those final 8-10 days if I mix in some strides, some FTP/VO2 intervals on the bike, and some fast 50s in the pool, coupled with a reduction in volume from an average of, say, 2.5 hours training/day down to 45-90 minutes. Basically, just enough to make me feel I'm doing something, but not so much that I feel tired, fatigued, used, whatever. I want to feel fresh and bouncy at all times.

Just like "You can't win the race in the swim, but you can lose it," you can't gain any fitness during the taper, but you can lose freshness, or become more fatigued than you should be going into race day. Finding that balance is an art, not a science. Do what feels right (this is not your first rodeo), and let the PMC numbers fall where they will.

Shaughn Simmons

I can't imagine finding this quality of wisdom regarding IM racing anywhere else on the planet period!  Hope everyone is paying attention because there is a lot of gold in this thread IMO.

Very much appreciate the fantastic input.  

1) Gordon makes an intuitive observation.  Look at my PMC chart and notice the loonnggggg gradual build.....  I followed Coach Rich's plan, did the OS, did the GF plan then did the IM advanced plan with a few hacks.......what I got was a 175.9 exit CTL as of last Sunday.  The benefit is fitness, the cost is Mental fatigue, just a long time to push, BUT, I'm not whining, just observing......

2) Coach R's input below regarding the build to a high CTL followed by a Taper with frequent, short, intensity wkos each day is what I feel is best in order to not let the CTL drop too drastically.  Feels right to me, so I've adjust the EN published taper a bit for this.

3) Al's comments on the taper and How you feel, are the most important focal point for me right now.  Getting that mental state back to the GREEN area while balancing the CTL drop is my unchartered territory but, IMO, getting it right mentally is the key focus.  In this area, we all have different capacities, so, as many of you have stated, there is no golden taper plan and, at this point, you have to listen carefully to how you feel.

Hope someone saves this thread, too valuable to get lost in the archives somewhere.

Looking to represent strong at IMWI and uphold that legacy so many of you, Coaches and members have set forth.

SS

Clark Mitchell

This is a great thread, lots of useful info on a topic I'm just beginning to understand. Thanks everyone for sharing!

scott dinhofer

@SS - what Al said... ^^ at some point this is art and not science. I know the analyst in you wants the charts.. the charts are a guide... the key is getting yourself to the line (mile 18 line) ready to rumble... remember, if you don't put enough out on the bike, you have 26 (or 8) miles to prove that point.

On a side night, the insane amount of work you do shows up on this chart where the IMs last year and this year are rises in a rather flat looking chart.. Amazing to see it quantified.