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Allowed to go long?

doddsjdoddsj
in General Training Discussions

Okay, I'm an EN newbie.  Love the race approach as it aligns with my own racing strategy (e.g. Mile 20 is the halfway point in an open marathon).  Love the hard interval work.  I think that this is natural coming from a bike racing background.  However, I am now 8 weeks out from my first IM (IMUSA) and I am getting the itch to go long on the bike.  From bike racing, I am used to doing intervals but I am also used to putting in 300 mile weeks.  I know that this has probably been asked and answered in the plethora of information here but I am going to ask anyways.  In the collective EN IM experience, as long as you do the work, will it hurt to also go long?  (Assuming your body does not revolt!)

Thank you, Jeremy

Comments

  • HayesSanbornHayesSanborn
    •  Gotta keep it fun. It you enjoy riding long go for it. I did back to back centuries last year. 
    • The workouts are designed for the majority of folks, not having the ability to spend 6+ hrs on a bike every weekend. I think if you took a poll you'll find we all squeeze in some 100 milers from time to time

     

  • Linda PatchLinda Patch

    You can start with Coach Rich's post--The Volume Elephant in the Room. Haven't checked the wiki, but there may be more in there on volume. Welcome aboard!

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott

    Jeremy - If you've got some extra time and energy to devote to training, is more biking the best thing for YOU? If you have a bike racing background, that may be your strength, and you might better spend training time and effort on your weaker sport(s). Here's what Rich says in the wiki about this: "You gotta trust us when we say if you can do a buttload of work in a 3.5-4hr ride, week after week, with only 2-3 x 5+hr rides, you absolutely have the goods to go 5.5-6.5hrs, or longer, on race day."

    Then, about 1/2 way down that entry, he gives advice about adding extra work about 4 weeks out from the race.

  • Nemo BrauchNemo Brauch
    Is that "itch" you are getting coming from just a pure desire to have some fun and be on the bike? Or is it coming from some fear that you haven't done the work? Al makes a great point, if you have that extra time- you gotta decide where to spend it and if your background is in cycling, maybe that isn't it. But if your just missing out on some "fun" in the process, and want to ride a bit longer for your own enjoyment- well then as long as you really are careful with recovery and not over-doing it, you should be OK to add a little extra distance at easy pacing once the "work" is done.
  • FrattoFratto
    not sure how... but i had never seen that Wiki entry. Thanks for posting that Al it answers alot of my questions.... Where have I been sleeping for the last 7 months ive been in EN that I never saw that?!
  • Coach RichCoach Rich

    Jeremy,

    Somewhere, either in the forum, wiki, a blog post, etc, I talked about training volume as a training tool and as a lifestyle decision. Then length of our long rides ("only" 3-4.5hrs) are as long as they need to be for the race distance you are training for, while also short enough to still accommodate a good bit of "make me faster" work.

    In my experience, wanting to retain a 300 mile cycling week:

    • Is a lifestyle decision, not a training decision.
    • Will significantly impact your other workouts. By definition, 300mi is ridden easier than 150-180mi = less 'make me faster' work. It will also bump against your run work, specifically your long run and interval runs.

    The short answer is that the plans are the way they are because PnI have done it the other, high-volume way, and have learned a better path. If you do decide to do more cycling, in my opinion this is a lifestyle vs training decision, and you are likely underestimating the impact this will have on your run training.

  • Al TruscottAl Truscott

    Some food for thought. If you're "used to 300 mile weeks cycling", is that with or without swimming and running at IM training volume/intensity? If you can ride 300 miles a week, run 30 miles, and swim 6 miles in a week, more power to you, you'll have a great race. But if you're trying to compare 300 miles biking by itself to what an Ironman training program is in weeks 8 >> 4 before the race, at least for me, it works out to something like this: 150 miles cycling, 30 miles running, 6 miles swimming. When I convert running and swimming miles to the equivalent time cycling, it adds up to 300! Assuming, in an hour, I can bike 21 miles, run 7 miles, and swim 2800 meters, that's a 12:4:1 ratio.

    But I fully appreciate the lifestyle issue, as a matter of fact I am currently living it. Last week I rode for 18 hours, and this week, I'm doing 2.5 for my FTP test day, and adding an extra ride of 3.5 hours Thursday, while doing all the assigned runs and easing off on the swimming (I view swimming as my strength). This is because I am here on vacation in the mountains where I love to ride. I've done this the past 4 years, and followed with an IM 3-4 weeks later, so I know the drill, but I have to be very careful with nutrition, rest and sleep while I'm doing it.

  • Coach PatrickCoach Patrick

    And let's remember that 16 of your teammates just put in 400+ miles over a week in the TOC camp (cycling only)...and Mr. Dan "I'm So Euro" Socie just put in 200+ miles in a day. The option for the volume is there, and if it's cool and you can keep it fun (involve others?) AND you can recover.

    But if you are saying you want to alter the plan to put in big miles now every weekend, that's another story. image

    Remember, how we want you to RACE / PACE your IM is likely very different than what you are used to. .72 all day is simply not..that..hard.

    P

  • doddsjdoddsj

     Thank you for all the great feedback.  

    The interest in putting in the miles comes from the desire to be as good as I can be.  It is not a matter of enjoyment as the vast majority of my riding time is already on the trainer.  It is also not really a fear of not having done the work.  Although perhaps there is a small piece of that in this regard, I want to do as well as possible.  Even though it is my first IM, I want to do more than just finish.  (Okay, probably not a unique attribute among the personalities that choose to tackle an IM ).

    As for my weaker sports, running is not an issue.  I have been running and cycling for years with a strong duathlon background.  Predictably, swimming definitely is an issue and I have been working on my form and trying to increase my endurance.  However, it is much more difficult to find swimming time and the ROI in the next 7 weeks is questionable.

    Lifestyle versus training?  Sorry that I'm not fully getting the concept.  I'm not interested in spending time working out just to work out.  I want everything to have a purpose.  As mentioned above, most of my training is on a trainer (Computrainer or treadmill) because I try to minimize the impact on my family as much as possible.  Early in the morning before the kids are up and at night after they go to sleep.  At the moment, I'm really not using the evening time and can put some additional time in on the bike.

    So why would I ask about putting in more cycling time?  Cycling is about efficiency.  The greater the muscle memory of firing in a cycling pattern, the more efficient the muscles become and the faster you can go using the same amount of energy (or maintain the same speed with less energy).  Efficiency should be a benefit at all levels of effort.  There is no doubt that work works.  In order to go fast, you have to train fast.  The comment that many riders make after going over to Europe to race is that they are amazed at how easy the easy days are and how hard the hard days are.  I completely get that an approach of all LSD will not work if you want to be as fast as possible.  So I guess my question revolves around doing the work and adding the extra mileage.  As long as you get the speed/hard work in and you make sure you get adequate recovery, is there experiential evidence that additional easy mileage hurts overall performance?  Helps overall performance?  Or has little impact either way?

    Thanks again, Jeremy Dodds

    P.S.  Looking forward to meeting folks in LP next weekend.

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