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Urgent Help: IMNC 78.6 Strategy

Due to flooding of some of the roads and bridges on the northern part of the IMNC course, WTC just announced they were re-routing it and having both the 70.3 and 140.6 athletes do the same "50-ish" mile course.  My initial reaction was loud and juvenile, but I was alone in my car, windows rolled up.  No harm, no foul.  Then the mature side took over, reminding me that this is a game for me and that a lot of people's lives are upside down and literally floating down the river right now.  The $500 Matthew did to our house pales by comparison.  

So . . . back to the race, still trying to digest this giant shitburger as I pack the SUV and prepare to head to Wilmington, I've considered many options over the past 30 minutes, some rationale, some not so much.  They've ranged from screw-it, to trying to transfer, to dropping out after the bike and go BQ at a marathon in a week or two.  Currently, while still chewing on said burger, I was just reminded by Dinhofer that I am still a swim-runner whether I like it or not.  Thus, I need to man up, go bring my dollars to an area that needs them, and come up with a plan so that I can put up the fastest possible OA time I can.

Assuming I swim the 2.4 no differently than I would in a real Ironman, and assuming the new bike route will be on dead-flat roads (there are no hill options),

- Do I pace the bike like a 70.3 at .80-85 IF?

- Do I stick with IM plan of .70 IF out of respect for what follows (26.2)?

- Or something in between, say 70.3-Light, like .77-78?

Right now, I'm leaning towards Door #3 and targeting 195-205 watts instead of my intended 175-80?

Once on the run, should I still go conservative the first 6 miles or shorten it to 3 and then step on the gas?

Thanks in advance, team.

MR

Comments

  • You're going to do what the great ones do. Block out the noise and execute the course in front of you! You'll kill what ever is there.
  • Mike...my $.02.  I like Door #3.  If you do #1, you will blow up your legs for the run.  Others will try to do this, and they will pay for it in the last 10 miles of the run.  If you do  #2, you will have a good run but maybe leaving time on the course.  #3 seems like the right mix, especially since you've been training to for the full 112 miles.  Of course, depending on the heat & humidity, you may want to monitor your IF carefully and drop back to 72% if need be.  On the run, I'd still go conservative for 6 miles, then step on the gas. You still want to have a great run so you can blow by those guys who rode too hard.

    Good luck.

     

  • Wasn't the same in texas? What were the coaches advices?
    I would bike a bit faster and my "conservative 6 miles" would be a bit less conservative (so yes #3 sounds good). I think this format will actually fit u better... Good skills out there and stay safe
  • I like Bruce's thoughts.
  • Man doest that really suck... I would think of it in terms of the TSS from a 50 mile ride vs. a 112 mile ride , then think of it in terms of 78.6 mile TSS vs. 140.6 mile TSS, and then think of it in terms of elapsed time for your day of 140.6 vs. the now 78.6 mile day..... Most people will have a 2.5-3.5hr shorter day.... Heck the bike is gonna be 62 miles short (not even a full HIM) you may even only be on the bike a measly 2hrs.... There is no doubt that many will misjudge, many will blow up, but the few standing on the podium at the end of the day will be the ones that hammered it much harder than they originally planned due to the shorter distance and it just happen to work out... Personally I would hammer the bike at IF .85 and see what happens? I certainly would not advise someone doing their first few IM's take this route but I would for you Mike...
  • strong as you are I would follow Tim's advice.

    You are a strong swimmer that will get out of the water quickly.. not alot of people in front of you on the bike, hammer the bike and run with RPE.
  • Mike, my thought is use the racer brain. How much faster on a flat course are you at the higher watts. You are very aero but there is definitely a wattage where the effort is not returned in speed at the same rate. Is that 20 or 30 watts higher, only you really know. Like Tim said there will be racers there. What is your fastest stand alone marathon and how fast do you think you could run after a 50 mile ABP ride? Do you think anyone in your age group will be close to that? I think I recall your ABP speed is pretty high. I know you can run a fast marathon. So, my thought is to back off the pace to .77 IF on the bike and then execute the perfect marathon. Good luck.

  • Crazy how much more of this stuff is happening at races lately. Nobody plans for it, and decisions are in the days or hours leading up to the race. Luckily Mike, you've been around the block a time or two and likely have more experience than your competition. Lots of good advice above from teammates with vastly more experience and knowledge than me. I agree that this could really play to your advantage - with your swim and run. I'm unsure of the IMNC swim start (waves, rolling, mass), but I think getting yourself in a good pole position out of T1 will be important. Speed will likely be ramped up for most on the shortened bike and you certainly don't want to be stuck behind packs on the bike. IF is a tough call - especially since the majority of the work we do in IM build is at IM pace and it's not as though you've been training recently at a HIM IF. It all comes down to you setting yourself up for a phenomenal run, and since the bike will only be 50 miles +/- on a flat course, the 26 mile run is where the majority of your time will be spent and where you can make some serious moves since you are a strong runner. I would opt for your #3 choice and you could always ramp up the last 20 miles if you feel like you are up to it. But, I would play to your strengths in this race. Really looking for to seeing what you can do. Have a great race!
  • If I were there with you ... I'd go .80 - .85 ish , go very conservative on the first 6 but maybe little hotter than in a 140.6, and see how you feel from there.
  • Geez your crediting ME?!! You've got a lot of much smarter people ^^up there^^



    Seriously, reading all of this after it's written, I am trying to digest the people I know best, etc.. I know I've done some full IMs where I felt like I overcooked the bike a bit and backed off to have a successful run. I'd probably plan for 5 miles at .8, evaluate from there, 15 minute resets on the garmin to recalculate NP/IF. tape the wattage/IF #s to your bars or write them with a sharpie on your forearm, unless you can commit to memory..



    Key here is to go harder than you think possible, but not as hard as the really stoopid people, a mary is a mary.. respect it, that said, why can't you have your BQ in NC on Saturday... Set up for THAT!

    the old line from 4 keys, if you don't think you biked hard enough, you have 26 miles to prove that point!

    I would expect you:

    + to ride more conservative than you think you should, but faster than IM guidance.

    + be smart and evaluate 

    + Set up for a faster Mary than usual 

    + Negative split the Mary as you don't want to overcook it in the first half only to blow up.. 

    hope there is a nugget of something as intelligent as what ^^they^ said!
  • Like it or not, IMNC is now a runner's race accounting for about 50% of the total time depending on one's strengths. So I'm with door #3 but as close to #1 as you can get while still being able to run to your fullest open potential. If the difference between the could and should split in a full is about 10 mins, then another metric for adjusting IMNC might be to take your target HIM bike split for that course and add 5 mins.
  • MR. That sucks. I am sorry that happened.

    Does it not matter what your goal was going in? Was this to be a KQ attempt for you? I am sorry, I didn't read your plan, but it seems to me you should honor your plan here, meaning if you were planning to focus on setting up a solid/steady run-the-whole-thing at all costs, you go door #3. But if you were thinking this was your chance for a KQ, I agree with Cronk and Trent and ride hard - the tip of the spear absolutely will. If you go out at .81-.85, that is a lot of heat and I would guess your legs will feel mighty similar to a .7 112 effort, so you could pace your marathon as you would an IM.

    Having read nearly all of your comments, I am reminded of your tag "its the bike...". Not sure what that meant to you before, but maybe it means to tear that shit up!
  • Hmmm...here's my 2¢, based on your FTP and VDOT, and based on what I would do if I had still had those #s like I did 10 years ago:

    • Swim the same as you have already planned
    • Reverse engineer based on using a 50 VDOT, instead of the 49 which would be wise in a full IM; this means think about hitting 8:0X min/mile, or going 3:30 for the marathon.
    • What HR would you be pushing at the end of such a marathon??? Use that for your HR target on the bike. I'm betting that would be in the 0.79-0.8 IF range after the first 20 minutes of a post swim stabilizing warm-up. But check your workouts for any intervals you did in that IF range, and see what HR you were holding. Go with that HR as the upper limit during the race, and let the IF fall where it will.
    • Here is where RPE and to a lesser extent HR are your friend. You've done enough races of all lengths over the years that you should be able to trust your RPE during the last two hours of the bike and during the run to let you actually race this bugger. 
    • Don't forget to re-think your nutrition plan. With the higher HR and effort levels, and the shorter time frame (something a bit over 7 hours?), you probably will be able to get by with slightly less calories per hour than you had anticipated, and certainly don't want to gorge yourself with solids on the bike.
    • You may be able to get away with a different approach to aid stations on the run than a regular IM. Like hitting 2 out of every three, walking only 2-10 steps when you do hit one.
    • To reiterate: you will be able to run faster on this marathon than in a standard IM, the trick will be finding that sweet spot between a stand alone pace and an IM pace. That's where RPE comes in. It operates the same as always: "Can I hold this effort level until the end of the race?" The pace and HR you'll be able to manage will be faster/higher than in a standard length IM, so get ready to manage that trinomial equation.

    Great opportunity. Have fun with it!

  • Wow. So, so much great stuff in here. Thank you all. Goal going in was crack 10 hours. KQ? No way. I have the swim/run speed and current swim/run fitness to maybe give it a go, but not the bike. When I told my wife that, she stared at me with a puzzled look and asked why I'm not seizing this opportunity instead of complaining about it. I guess there's no reason not to really race it . . . it's not like there's some pride thing about going sub-7 or 7:30 or a 8:00. This race will quickly become an * and will never count towards anything. Well, other than a step toward Legacy status.

    So, I'm just going to race it. I'm going to swim my face off, on the rivet the whole time, fighting to stay with the fish, but never quite crossing the anaerobic line and blowing up. And, if I blow up, so what. I need to put 5 minutes on my competiton. Will ace the transitions, although I will need arm warmers and gloves for the 45 degree, windy ride. I need to ride at wattage that would propel me to at least 23-24mph on a "normal" day. This is in the 200-10 range. That's .80 IF, but I'll rely heavily on RPE to adjust up or down, trying to find that fine line and keep from crossing over. To go meaningfully faster (i.e., 25mph), I would need to get closer to FTP wattage, and that's a fool's game. I really can't give up more than 15 minutes to the front group in my AG, other than the pure bikers who have no other play but to ride at 28mph. Then I'm going to start the run HIM-conservatively, based on bike HR and RPE. Probably 8:15 or so pace for the first 3, then re-assess. I'm hoping I feel like I do at Mile 3 of a HIM and can begin to run close to normal stride/pace. I'm in sub-3:15 standalone shape right now, so I want to shoot for 3:30/8:00 pace. If I blow up, who cares. If I somehow feel good at the halfway point, sub-3:25 = BQ.

    I will definitely go a bit lighter on calories on the bike, all liquid/gels. Will walk early stations on the run, especially if HR is way high. But it will be in the high 50's/low 60's, which makes hydration and nutrition (and HR) way easier to manage. The second loop will be full of "70.3" racers on their first, so efficient aid station management will be very important. Assuming bike course really turns out to be 50 miles and the swim isn't a contra-current slog, I need to bust 7 hours to make the first page, hit 6:45 to make it interesting. And if I blow up trying and don't reach either . . .
  • I am little late to this post, sorry.

    Do what I do whenever I get a shitburger:

    1) Recognize this is a shitburger and call it like it is.....

    2)Move forward, put some mayo, mustard, ketchup, salt pepper on it.  Add some Cronk dust, Truscott powder and DJ sauce (if the cranks are in good shape) and look for the silver lining......(read my signature line.)

    In your case and IMO, you have a distinct advantage at this race.  You are one of the best race execution peeps I know having done two IMs with you and you deal with changes in a very smart way.  While your competitors are still looking at this shitburger, complaining and stuck in their negative thoughts, you have taken it, moved forward, put together a strategy that will leverage your experience and strengths in terms of racing this modified course much smarter.  No way I would skip that opportunity.  All 7 of my IMs had some kind of shit burger, you got a BIG MAC but you got it upfront well in enough time to take advantage and use it to your benefit.

    Now, I was thinking the same as Tim in terms of TSS and Al but got to the party late.  I too, was going to say not to change anything on the swim (just don't go anaerobic).....

    If you manage a .85-.86 IF for 50 miles and come in between 2:15 - 2:25 that is about ~170 TSS, much less than the 285 -290 TSS IM bike load.  Gonna be hard to go over .86 simply because you really have not trained nor built the fast twitch muscle base needed for that in my view.  As Al noted, will be more difficult to digest IM bike calories at that effort level, so for me, I would be going with liquid only on the lighter side of the drink mix concentration but maintaining sodium plan.  May need to consider a bit more caffeine as well.  I would still behave myself on the first ten miles of the bike (vs. 20 in an IM) and try to get that HR down to a good point from which to go to work.  That means you're going to be pulling something higher than the .85 on the last 15 miles of the bike most likely.......sounds like BIG fun and complete insanity but remember, I'll be watching virtually.

    I can't really give you advice on the run.  You're a strong runner and mentally tough as well.  I would still be careful on the first 6 miles using HR and, if you feel like you gave something up on the first 6, you can take out your revenge on the last 8 of the marathon.

    Wishing you great skill and execution.  I really think you will excel in your AG given this weird course, what it will do to your competitors and how smart you will be going in with the adjustments you make.

    SS

     


  • Not much new from me as most of the WSM's have already checked in. I like the TSS idea though wonder about the practicality of practicing at the long pace and then being able to effectively dial it up to 11 (or .85 in this case). While I could absorb the TSS, I'm not sure how my legs would react since I hadn't trained them that way. I would hammer the swim (like others said, not crossing to anaerobic). I would probably bike around .8 with the freedom to move that up if my legs still felt really froggy at the half way-ish point. On the run, I evaluate how I feel. If I feel like I have way more in the tank based on all of your past experience, I would be tempted to start pushing it sooner. If I feel like that is recipe for disaster, I do what I have trained for. The good news for you Mike is that the delta between going sooner and running the normal race isn't very big. Your run fitness will just naturally keep them close. Sorry about the shit burger, but it's time to get your ninja on.
  • Strong advice here, such a smart group. My ideal modified IM would be what happened in MD - no swim. Yours is a short bike. This is a one-time opportunity, go make the most of it!
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