Body comp, protein, and losing lbs

Dawn Cass

As many of us are trying to work "body comp" in the off season, wanted to get some thoughts from the team.  I am actually very good at gaining weight...especially after A race.  I have unfortunately been successful at it again this year and would like to drop some of the lbs (i.e., not race weight but a smaller version of the me of today.)

I am well versed at logging calories in and expensed and in general eat well.  No real sweets in the house, etc.  I have the app...and see / am a part of the forums where everyone is all in on slimming down.  The question I ask however is HOW everyone is going to get there.

What I don't perhaps pay enough attention to is the nutritional value of what I am eating and wonder if I could make better strides (i.e. losses) if I did.  

I have heard a lot of talk around protein....should I eat a lot?  How much?  I also see this related to body building so honestly not sure what to do with it.

As a side note, I am a vegetarian and know some of you out there are as well.

Any helpful hints on the above that has worked for others?  Are you tracking % allowance of protein, carbs, etc.  If so..what is optimal for day to day life?

Paul Hough

Dawn - I've been re-reading Matt Fitzgeralds book on Racing Weight. Bottom line, when it comes to losing weight, research shows that all that matters is the total calories consumed relative to what you are burning. There is no magic ratio, and no research suggests a high protein, or a high fat, or a high carb diet is superior. So step 1 is to reduce calories. Step 2 is to improve diet quality. I.e., within your calorie limit it is best to eat as much real food as possible and minimize crap like candy, processed foods, etc. Step 3 is to improve diet timing. I.e., eating something just before or after your workouts, more in the morning and less at night, and increase carbs in proportion to the level of endurance work you are doing. That's it. I'm not getting hung up on the deets of my diet, but I am trying to do a better job on Step 2 and 3 while staying within my calorie limit.

Phil Mills

I follow the same process that Paul describes. I create a daily caloric budget and plan my nutrition to it. I find that cutting out the candy and crap food is challenging for the first couple of weeks. By week three I find that the nutrition works itself out, as I can't maintain a hard training regiment and eat sweets/crap food without tanking my wko or caloric budget.

Peter Greagg

I had a couple of sports nutritionists consultations.
Basically I filled out a food diary for about a month before the consult. He then gave me an eating plan that made a range of suggestions of food types and quantities for each meal (plus 2 to 3 snacks) per day. These options gave me a 500 cal deficit per day and made sure I included the right amounts of each types of food (eg carbs, protein etc).
When adding exercise, I just need to add fuel and recovery to maintain the 500 cal deficit.
For example, I race around 68 kgs, and so for dinner, I have 150 gms of red meat, or 200 gms of fish, or 200 gms of chick peas — which is my evening protein. I then add either 400 gms of potatoes, or 120 gms of pasta, or 0.5 cup of uncooked rice (but of course I cook it before eating it). Then add green vegs etc. You get the idea.
I don't have to think about what to eat, I just choose for a list the nutritionist knows I already like to eat.
BTW, I need to make adjustments on the fly to ensure my weight is headed in the right direct.

Keith Wick

As a fellow vegetarian, I have found that my key weight loss focus is when I cut out processed foods and sugars. Processed foods for me include bread, pasta and other similar foods. My primary calorie sources come from lots of fats which also tend to be protein based foods--nuts and lots of eggs. When I combine these fat/protein sources with lots of green vegetables I find that I still have energy, but seem to slim down.  That doesn't mean that I don't do carbs, but I limit them to brown rice, quinoa, maybe oatmeal, etc.  While I'm not as strict about things as others in my house who follow this diet plan ( http://toquietinflammation.com/ ), I do notice that my body seems to store less fat, especially around my midsection. When I've been sound in my eating, I have not been a calorie counter--I just eat. I do recognize that there is something rational to the calories in vs. calories out argument, but I also feel that when our bodies aren't getting "tricked" by sugar and processed food then it naturally gets rid of calories it doesn't require vs. storing them for later.

scott dinhofer

Glad you posted this as it is my biggest topic & goal to enter the holidays at something close to this year's "race weight" which i know was still 8-10lbs heavy. 

First of all, you are in the right place, in your spare time, (who has any of that?!) scroll back 2-3 years in this nutrition forum and you will find lots of great discussions on all of this. 



I think there's lots of good advice above and much to follow I expect. 

I think Paul nailed it, at the end of the day it's cals in/out, Jill is constantly rubbing me on what we call input-output. Beyond that it is the quality of what you eat. The biggest thing for me is to not feel hungry and get to the next meal. 

I've worked with a couple of nutritionists, and the best person I've gotten advice from is Tim C, stay with him for a weekend and you will get a full blown education on how to eat, what to eat. But, the non-processed, nonsugar diet is the key. He'll also remind you to ensure you are tracking EVERYTHING that goes past your lips when you count calories.

Withrow's Race reports, particularly his kona buildup summary give a great example of what he does and he goes through huge swings.  the thing that stuck with me was having dinner 3 nights before IMMT in '14, he just got a salad, while everyone else had pasta... here's his forum posting on sugar.

The best education I got (Aside from Tim C) was ponying up the $ for the core diet. They gave me a great calorie plan, one for stability & one for weight loss, for training, etc broken down into cals per day based on hours per week of training. They also further break that down into carbs/ protein/ Fat. She gave me a good education on good fats vs Bad fats, and the glycemic index.

 

For me a go to is vegan protein shakes (I am not vegan) but I do believe in the benefits of a vegetarian/ vegan influenced diet. They also taught me the value of eating nutrient dense foods that make you feel full, and remain that way for a few hours. 

So, how do i deal with it, especially when eating out so much? First, for my local eating, I have a handful of restaurants that i prefer because they have a truly big ass salad. I eat mostly salads, usually with a good piece of simply grilled salmon on them. There is a deli in my office building that has lots of good grilled chicken breasts ready to go, so I often have them dice one up with a bunch of grilled veggies that they have for my lunch. Aside from this I utilize a Vegan protein shake (About Time -Ve) one scoop shaken in a bottle for bkfst, 1.5 scoops for lunch & a big ass salad for dinner. That diet and a running focus lost me 22lbs in 10 weeks when I went to Kona as an Ironfan (but wanted to look the part

The other big bang for the buck for me came from Tim & Heather. I bought a copy of this Veggie Burger Cook Book, I keep finding new ones in there, yes, it's a lot of time to prepare, i make double or triple batches, wrap & freeze them. I always have them ready to go. As you make them, you can write down the nutritional content of macronutrients, add it all up and divide by number of burgers you get. Mine typically come out to around 300-375 cals each. Some of them can have a bit of carbs having brown rice or Quinoa as a base. (btw, my now HS Senior daughter really likes a few of these and helps me with the production line)

following this thread as I know there is lots more good advice to come

Satish Punna

I've read Matt Fitzgerald's book too and I think it's a good place to start. There is a free 'diet quality score' app for the iPhone that goes with the book and is good for tracking diet without getting too much into tracking minutiae. What has worked for me is cutting out all grains including corn /processed foods/sugars ( even stealth sugar like agave) and getting most carbs from green or coloured nutrient dense vegetables and to a lesser extent fruit, making up the calories with fats- I eat meat but a vegetarian could also get fats from avocado etc. When the training workload is higher, yams and other starchy vegetables are good carbs too.



Protein most people say you need .8-1.2g/ lb of lean body weight /day taken in small doses since only 20g or so can be processed at one time. But some people might need more. As a vegetarian you might need more since it's harder to get bioavailable complete protein without meat and you need to be careful about the amount of carbs in beans etc.

Using Matt Fitzgeralds book got me from 155lbs to 145 last year. Going to low carb and high fat/moderate protein this spring got me to 135 and I raced that way this summer including IMMT.  I'm 5'9.5" on a good day. 

ETA: My definition of processed food includes not just store bought prepared food in packages, but fruit juice/shakes/most vegetable oils/ anything less than whole milk etc etc.  

Dawn Cass

All - many thanks for the posts....and see lots of great ideas out there. To come back on the above:

Matt Fitzgeralds book...I have it, read it a while ago....just dusted it off the bookshelves and will have another read.

Processed foods/sugar - completely agree however in my case, the "really" bad stuff is not the issue...I have not had one piece of Halloween candy. ;-) So cakes, sweets, etc for me are easy to stay away from. I do think however you all have hit on a point that it's not just the "obvious" processed stuff...but it's other things like oils or grains that are not very good for weight loss.

Timing of when you eat....I think there is money in this one. I am very busy from 6am ~7pm with two little girls, their school, full time work, training, etc that during those hours it's very easy to stay on track. It's when I actually have some time to relax in the evening that the wheels fall off the bus. I don't really eat because I am hungry...I think I feel like I have "so much" time on my hands that I reach for the fridge. Although I am not eating officially bad stuff....it's stuff I don't need, and it's night when in a few short hours I will be going to sleep = worst time to pile up on the calories.

I have just ordered the Vege burger cookbook...thanks Scott. Always looking for ideas. What i find is if I cook in bulk and freeze it does make things easier and more controllable. I have a million cook books but always looking for alternatives...should be here for the weekend. ;-) I haven't talked to Tim C as of yet..but seems someone who could tap into this discussion and perhaps help all of us!

Any other thoughts/ideas...throw them out there, this is great stuff.

Jacklyn Moore

Now that the boys have weighed in. Get the book "ROAR" by DR. Stacy Simms. She is an exercise physiologist that specializes in WOMENS metabolism. Fantastic read. We are not little men. You will learn a lot about you and how we use calories. 

rlh2000

Calories in-calories out will work, but focusing on what those calories are will determine if it is actually making you healthier or not. And calories in-calories out won't work quite as linearly/magically in women due to those damn hormones as it does in men. Nutrition research on a whole is very poor quality (some of it is just nature of the beast- tough things to control!) and very often uses a male only sample. Part of me dreams of getting back to the 110 lb marathon runner I was 5+ yrs ago, but then I also remember that I had amenorrhea for 3 years so my weight in no way reflected good health. I just got Shalane Flanagan's cook book "Run Fast Eat Slow" and everything I've made so far has been great. It's very focused on healthy fats so that you can avoid issues like amenorrhea that are very problematic in female athletes.

Gordon Cherwoniak

I've found no magical combination either.  I also have a core diet plan that was done several years ago and when following this to the letter I lose quite a bit of weight.  I did have to add in a little extra food but find very little processed food particular in block 1 which last 4 weeks.  As you get in to heavier training loads the subsequent blocks to incorporate some more caloric dense foods but still not a whole lot of process stuff.  As for the protein content, the first block ranges from 23% to 35% over the 7 days and carbs from 47 to a high of 63%.  Fat is usually quite low and not over 20%.  Note that I eat pretty much anything.

One big thing I find is eating on a regular basis really helps.  A regular day will have 7 eating times with some additional calories around workouts.  So with your busy schedule if might be a challenge but getting food in is important to ensure to don't over eat.  For example Monday would have food at 7am, 10, 12, 3, 6, 8 and a protein shake before bed.  There is also 4 fig newtons around a running session. 

 

 

tim cronk

Dawn,

Congrats on your successful overachieving.

Diet discussion can be like religion or politics.

Disclaimer- I am not a doctor/nutritionist etc, these views are my own.

I'm Vegan(more correctly plant based) I'm not anal about it but will choose 100% animal free 99.9% of the time. I don't preach it. I believe it to be the best for animals, the planet, and my health. While I don't believe it has had any huge positive effects on my athletic performance , it sure hasn't had any negative effects either. All 6 of my KQ's have been top 3 performances at the IM distance in the M50-54AG against 150-250 other guys while being fueled by plants....I'm Starting my 9th year of endurance sports and 8yrs Vegan.

X2 what Paul said about Matt's book.

X2 what Satish said about Matt's quality ranking (except I dont buy the LCHF and I eat all grains, corn, and starches)

Protein- It is virtually impossible to short change your protein requirements if you are getting enough calories.

Counting Calories- I have done this in the past (pain in the ass) and I highly recommend it with a myfitness pal or equivalent. WHY ? Because most people have absolutely no idea how much they are eating until you track it. Most people are not honest with themselves and miss count, measure, or conveniently forget condiments etc... Counting Calories should be an eye opener for most.
Timing- Definitely a believe in timing , before , during and after wko's the time to cut back is in between and at night. Most will starve themselves through out the day and during wko's and then simply over eat later . I dont count anymore but feel in tune with how much I need. I think we all know when we eat too much or not good choices.

LCHF/Ketosis - absolutely not a believer in either... Any world champs LC ? Dont think so. Maybe a few Ultra peeps... But I can show you more successful Ultra peeps that are Vegan... Even Andy Coggan(who I can't stand by the way) is on ST in a discussion on ketosis (way above my head)... Most LCHF/Ketosis diets are people chasing the magic bullet for weight loss that doesn't exist... Ketosis is scary, you are forcing your body to do something it doesn't want to do naturally....They really aren't chasing performance...Every one talks about teaching your body to burn fat, everyone burns fat at lower intensities and carbs at higher intensities... Everyone the point in which it crosses from fat to carbs has to do with overall fitness and there is some theory it can be trained .... Even if you are chasing performance my theory has been that if fueling by carbohydrates buys me 1watt more or 1 second more per wko times x number of wko's per year makes me that much fitter and there fore raises my fat burning to carbohydrate burning crossing to a higher threshold? IOW more fit makes Z1 faster at the same RPE ? When I run/ride easy i dont need calories. When I do intervals in Z2-Z5 I need fuel. Little Metallica lyrics.
So gimme fuel
Gimme fire
Gimme that which I desire

Mike Pollan - Eat food, not too much, mostly from plants.

7 Words & 7 Rules for Eating

Pollan says everything he's learned about food and health can be summed up in seven words: "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants."

Probably the first two words are most important. "Eat food" means to eat real food -- vegetables, fruits, whole grains, and, yes, fish and meat -- and to avoid what Pollan calls "edible food-like substances."

Here's how:

Don't eat anything your great grandmother wouldn't recognize as food. "When you pick up that box of portable yogurt tubes, or eat something with 15 ingredients you can't pronounce, ask yourself, "What are those things doing there?" Pollan says.
Don’t eat anything with more than five ingredients, or ingredients you can't pronounce.
Stay out of the middle of the supermarket; shop on the perimeter of the store. Real food tends to be on the outer edge of the store near the loading docks, where it can be replaced with fresh foods when it goes bad.
Don't eat anything that won't eventually rot. "There are exceptions -- honey -- but as a rule, things like Twinkies that never go bad aren't food," Pollan says.
It is not just what you eat but how you eat. "Always leave the table a little hungry," Pollan says. "Many cultures have rules that you stop eating before you are full. In Japan, they say eat until you are four-fifths full. Islamic culture has a similar rule, and in German culture they say, 'Tie off the sack before it's full.'"
Families traditionally ate together, around a table and not a TV, at regular meal times. It's a good tradition. Enjoy meals with the people you love. "Remember when eating between meals felt wrong?" Pollan asks.
Don't buy food where you buy your gasoline. In the U.S., 20% of food is eaten in the car.

In closing its all about discipline..... It ain't easy...

What did I eat today?
Coffee and a 36 min Swim
Breakfast- oatmeal, flax, chia, berries, almond milk and honey soaked overnight (yep NOT vegan my Dad is a bee keeper)
1 Gel and Nuun 1hr run
Lunch - Wrap with hummus, leftover roasted brussel sprouts, peppers, mushrooms, mixed greens.... tomatoes, avocado ,cantalope, pineapple, watermellon, and 3 trader joes chocolate crisps
Afternoon Snack- banana, almond butter, raisins, apple
Dinner- Bowl of TJ's cruciferous veggies (kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts) topped with roasted baby potatoes, onions, garlic, and baked marinated tofu. Condiment was a korean spicy sauce (sugary and spicy)
Desert- Trader Joes Soy Cherry Chocolate Chip Ice Cream

Tomorrow AM... will be Ezekiel Sprouted Grain Muffin with dates and almond butter after a short run and before my bike!

rlh2000

Thanks Tim, for making me miss Trader Joes... so far that is the main downside I've found to Canada!

Dawn Cass

All, fantastic feedback, thank you.

Jacklyn/Rachel - good points, and you, along with Scott have successfully increased my Amazon spend in the last 48 hours. (As a side note, while ordering said books on Amazon, I actually had to think about the last time I bought BOOKS from Amazon. Anyway, not relevant to this discussion.)

Tim - appreciate the long words of wisdom. As a matter of fact, tomorrow is a day off work and a trip to Trader Joes is in order (not one close to me unfortunately to requires a bit of time). Lots to think about with what you mention above. In writing, what comes to me is variety. In reality, I don't have much of it in certain meals which I think leads to boredom. As example, I have porridge (oatmeal) most of the time for breakfast...perhaps I should mix it up a bit to help with the interest side of things. On labels...agree completely with you however as I don't have any of the "good" food shops near me, the "normal" ones I find tough to get products that DONT have a bunch of rubbish in them. Even organic produce (which I always prefer to buy) tends to be only 70% good looking.

Timing...huge...thinking things through, certainly an area for improvement. I don't know why night is so difficult for me, but not doing myself any favors by having to much to late in the day...for no reason.

On a final thought...the last time I had a twinkie was when I was probably ~5 years old....and my two little girls (3 and 6) don't actually know what one is. So on that front, I am good! ;-)