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Dave Gardner Micro Thread

Hi Coach,

 Im loving being a new member of the team and the quality of the work of the Outseason.

 I havent missed a bike workout in 5 weeks, but will only be able to get 2 of the 3 in this week. I can shift things around to get in what you feel are the most important 2 of them; which one should I leave out?

 

Thanks!

Dave

Comments

  • Dave thanks for the feedback. I can't wait until your Week Eight Test!!! image

    I recommend you get in the Tuesday and Saturday rides; let me know if you need more help with that!

    ~ Coach P
  • Hi Coach,

    Im struggling with the transition from the NOS to the 1/2 Beginner plan. Contributing factors I think are the volume jump, the sudden switch to TT bike, the degree to which Im having to hack the plan, and the surprising intensity.

    Unfortunatley the week of the transition I was on an 8 day cruise! I adapted well I think, still got in 10ish hours of good quality work with what I had available without impacting my family time. This was actually a good week of work (spin classes, stair stepper, shorter intense runs, Caribbean open water swims) but made jumping into the 1/2 plan at week 10 a step more difficult.

    My just completed week 10 was a struggle. Im masters swimming focusing on technique. My volume is low, but Im working hard and it takes a little ore toll on me than the average ENer I think. My first 3 hour ride on my trip bike in 2 years after only a few rides on it lately whipped me, esp with the Z4 work early in the ride. Ive got some fit issues that I identified and need to fix very soon. I only made it 2 1/2 hours as I was sore and spent. The good news is that Ive been studying the nutrition wiki and felt like my nutrition plan went well. Same on the 2 hour z3 ride. I consider it a victory that I held low z3 watts in aero for 50 minutes after the warmup, but again was whooped after 90 minutes. Again, I don't think it was nutrition related, just haven't adapted to longer riding on the TT bike. 

    And the long run. Had to combine and went 90 minutes. Im coming off a BQ fall marathon so my running is strong and didn't have a problem with 32 minutes at z2 and a mile at z3. But I haven't run that hard or long in awhile so it was at a high cost the next day. While I love MP running and am currently injury free Id like to stay that way and so am hesitant to continue that much weekly without a short build.

    After all that, what are my questions lol? I do have a few, but I guess the main purpose of this is to let you early Im having some issues before they get any bigger. Ive hacked the next couple weeks into my TP based on my work schedule. Would you like to take a look and see if it makes sense? Im not ready for a big day so Ive pushed it back into next week. And I wonder if I can dial back the intensity of the bike and run to allow myself some time to absorb the 25% increase in volume. And at this point when choosing between volume and intensity, esp on the bike, which is more important? Is it better to dial back the intensity and be successful completing the 2 and 3 hour rides?

    Thanks Coach, have a great week-
    Dave

  • ...and I'll add an afternoon data point!

    I did the 3 HR ride / 25 min run today with some light mods and it went much better. I rode 2:45 and took 20 W off the 2x12's and finished much stronger. And was able to run trp pace for the 25 min and felt pretty good finishing. 

    I think taking a little edge off the power, as well as adding a full day of rest after the long run helped a lot 
  • Dave, thanks for the details...the more, the better!!!!  The transition to our full distance plants is certainly challenging. As he mentioned, if the fact there are multiple variables happening at the same time.

    To help ease the transition I would recommend that you do all the workouts for time and not intensity. Give it a week or two and then slowly work the intensity in. For example, you'll likely need 10 to 12 hours on your tri bike just to feel comfortable... Or at least to be confident in what you need to change.

    So that means you're Saturday Sunday rides should all be in zone one to warm-up and then zone two steady. Long run should also be mostly at TRP pace...no flash. 

    You're on the right path, and the sun jumped in training stress has definitely prompted you to make some positive changes. Confident we'll get through this and get you on track.... Keep me posted on the bike changes!

    ~ Coach P
  • Thanks Coach! Good plan, ill dial it back for time and build in the intensity over time  
  • Love it...can I follow you on Strava or something? Maybe you can add that to your Signature? 
  • My sträva (https://www.strava.com/athletes/900655), Ill get it in the signature block this afternoon!

    Oh man, its been a rough couple weeks. Soon after our last exchange I got the cold for 4 days that went into lung infection. I dialed way back the first week but wasn't successful in dodging the infection. After a few days on antibiotics I resumed low level work and got in a decent 8 (10-10.5 hours after today) week. Im 90-95 percent and feel good enough to resume some intensity.

    I need a little help to rebuild the plan from here. I haven't done a Big Day yet, and haven't done intensity in awhile. This week should I resume some run/bike intensity with the shorter workouts and do the long/med bricks this weekend and BD next week? Or do a Big Day either early this week or on Sunday (travel Thursday- Saturday).

    Sorry Coach, pulling for the Falcons baby!  :D

  • @Dave Gardner - Signature success...thanks for that!!! :sunglasses:

    I hear you on the illness...it happens to the best of us, especially with the early season training. I am glad you are through that challenge and hope that you are ready to get back on track (it might still take a bit, so please be patient!!). 

    Despite being sick, your last few weeks per Strava have been pretty solid. 

    Moving forward, this week I'd like intensity on Wed / Sat Bike (90% for Z4). 

    I'd see this week as:

    Mon - As planned
    Tue - As planned
    Wed - As planned (you can drop run).
    Thu - long run from Sunday.
    Fri - Off / Swim
    Sat - Early AM run of 30-45' @ TRP.
    Sun - Saturday ride, no brick. 

    I'd like to see you do a big day day on the weekend of 2/18 or 2/19 if at all possible...thoughts? 

    The Patriots prevailed...but not sure exactly how. 

    ~ Coach P
  • Thanks Coach P!

    I like the week 13 rebuild. My only mod will be to swap Thu and Fri, and I think I'll be fine doing the thursday long run (on friday) as a combined run with a bit less intensity. WDYT?

    The 3x1 mile today (1 z3, 2 and 3 z4) was tough. The effort and my HR was near my threshold HR in the low 180s at 5-7 sec slower than Z3 for the first 2 miles, so the 3rd I took my foot off the gas a little and ran Z3 effort (resulted in 15 sec slower than z3). It was right after a hard swim so perhaps that was the issue (nutrition/hydration were good), or I need to be patient like you said lol.

    Lets do Big Day on 2/18. Thanks for building the Strava pic showing my training load, that was a shot of encouragement! And I'll check in with you in a few days for adjustments needed for next week.

    Pats...World Champions...again...wow, just wow!

    Dave
  • @Dave Gardner

    I love the modification...just need to get it done early so you can rest "enough" to be ready for Saturday. 

    Absolutely the swim will suck it out of you...next time give yourself 15 minutes to eat/drink and "prepare" for the run, especially with a run like that.  Likely a great call to back it off a bit. :smile:

    I like stacking the swim + bike or swim + run as an indicator of how hard the race will actually be, but it doesn't really let you hit those higher paces!

    ~ Coach P
  • Hey Coach!

    Im starting week 17 of HIM plan and still haven't done a full SBR race rehearsal, although I've had several good bike-runs and last week an open water swim-bike brick (in which I was surprisingly tired on the bike).  What should take priority this week- hacking the week to do a full up Race Rehearsal, or doing the week more as planned with separate RR swim and run, and the 2 brick bike/runs?

    My job travel this month is sun-Tuesday every week. So I'll move my long run/RR run to Sunday's, and looks like Friday would be best if I do a full RR. 

    And FYI I'm late addressing discomfort on my TT bike, but I've swapped saddles and am getting a fitting adjustment at Cobb Cycling this week-

    Thanks!
  • @Dave Gardner - that swim to bike fatigue is a BEAR. It shows just how huge early nutrition on the bike is..and I mean instant. You need those calories. 

    I say YES to making that full RR work. Even taking Thursday off to prepare...it will be well worth it and a huge confidence booster for you. 

    So regular week thru Wed. Thursday off. Friday full RR. Saturday is a few hours 2 to 3 (?) of aerobic bike time before the Sunday long run!

    ~ Coach P
  • Race rehearsal went great!

    I took your advice and took in an additional 180 calories immediately after the swim, and an additional 100 on the bike over my original plan, over the ride. Weather conditions on the bike were more Galveston-like, humid and very windy. This was excellent practice holding my race watts regardless of speed as I rode loops on my course.

    First long bike after a long swim resulted in interesting numbers. My HR was 10 beats higher immediately and held there across the ride. And my power output was 10 watts lower for the same perceived effort so didn't push it. I held a nice steady VI of 1.02. Ran great off the bike despite feeling a bit trashed, TRP for 3 and then negative split the last 3 miles. 

    Question for next week (week 18); do I do the scheduled race rehearsal since I did one this week, or crank out some week 17 bike volume (swim/bike bricks perhaps?). I feel confident in my nutrition and pacing plans for my race. Some data points for your recommendation, the swim is my weakest and least confident, my bike volume has been ok but not much intensity, and I'm confident in my run (although I'm sticking with the long runs of 13 miles this week, 90 minutes next week). But if you think I'd benefit from another race rehearsal I'll sure do it

    Thanks and have a great weekend!
    Dave

  • @Dave Gardner - Nice work!!! I really like how steady you were on the bike. This wasn't the best place to test bike HR at the start; on race day you'll need to CHILL for 20 mins until your HR gets down to where you want it to be (or as close as it can be by 20' mark) before you pick it back up. 

    The long runs are good..I'd like to see a mini big day from you. Can you do RR Swim + 90' Bike + 90' Run...that's good work, and done at the right intensity for race day, you can dial in your nutrition etc. 

    What say you?

    ~ Coach P
  • Alright Coach!

    Lets do it, mini-big day here we come. My swim is what it is, I have a steady open water pace which I'll hold. How do you recommend I pace the bike and the run for this day?

    Scheduling-wise I think I can do this MBD on Saturday. How do you recommend I structure the rest of the week? I'm doing this weeks long run this Sunday.  Next weeks long run is down to 90 minutes so I assume that will roll into the MBD. 

    Dave

  • One more data point for ya!

    My RR run today was the best run I've had in quite awhile. Ive done mostly TRP running since the OS as I struggled to adapt to the increased volume. But today after my biggest volume week ever and a day of rest I ran strong and felt great. 7 miles TRP, 4 z2 1 z3 and a cool down mile. Of course 30 degree dry air helped a lot but I kept thinking my HR monitor was not working as it stayed 10-15 beats lower than expected. 

    Dave
  • Woohoo!   That is a great long run! It looks like you're walking a great line between doing the work in managing your recovery, something that will have to continue for you to be successful on race day. That said, most of the work is practically done. As we head into this week, yes I want your long run to be a part of Saturday MBD. 

     So let's keep Thursday's run to about 45 minutes at TRP with some strife. Friday is swim only. Saturday is MBD, with that bike in the 90 minute zone with the second-half pretty close to race pace. 

    Please note I'm talking about race pace for the bike portion, the run should be fairly boring except for maybe the last mile. Really dialed in that nutrition for the bike and the run and did the final piece of the puzzle. Anything we can do to keep that heart rate down at the start of the run will keep you happy or across the rest of your day.


  • The week and the mini-big day (on 3 /18) went very well Coach!

    I had a 45 min steady 2300 yard swim (2:00/100, this is a very good swim for me!) and did not feel fatigued when finished. Steady on the bike, VI of 1.01 through 30 min when my PM died, but held the same RPE for the last 60 minutes. On the run I held my HR to the avg of the last hour on the bike for 3 miles, stepped it up to TRP through mile 7, then z2 for 2 and z3 for mile 10. Felt awesome, I stopped short of 90 min as I figured 10 miles was enough.

    First time working out in my race kit through the brick, got some new chafing so I just got some Trislide to hopefully alleviate that.

    Last long run (60 min) yesterday was strong, steady z2 for pretty much the run duration, which I haven't been able to do since Chicago in mid October.

    I now HAVE a swim (which I didn't have 4 months ago), decent enough bike, and got my run back. Now its time to throw down with some EN execution!
  • @Dave Gardner

    BAM! Now keep the hydration / fluids up (pee 1x on the bike!) to mitigate the heat and you should be all set!!!

    ~ Patrick
  • Rocked my swim, bike, run and nutrition execution! Transitions?! Well, we'll work on those lol.  Race report in progress. I'm surprised how well I felt immediately post race and the last 2 days, doesn't compare to open marathon body damage lol. 

    My transition to ironman plan is complicated by, I hate to say it...2 weeks of elective travel to New Zealand 4/17-5/1. Son is studying abroad in Wellington and we couldn't pass on the opportunity to go see the country. I know this is risky with my first full distance in July, esp being Alaskaman. So I need your help in making the best of it. The good thing is my family is completely supportive and understand I'll need to take time to train most days, so I'm not spending SAUs to do it. I can do epic things for a few hours while they sleep in.

    Another complicating factor is I'm already planning to hack the ironman plan to accomplish increasing weekly vertical targets to prepare for the 6000 ft climb on the marathon portion of the race. 

    My overall thinking is in line with what I've read in the wiki about travel interruptions, to plan on running most days during the vacay. But this one is simply too long to do that. So Im thinking a long bike at least twice, more if you think I should. And swim at least twice during the 2 weeks, again more if you think I should. And run/trail run/hike mountains most days. Obviously lots of amazing possibilites for swim/bike/run/hike, my strava feed will be epic! Your thoughts?

    And so the next 2 weeks...if I recover through Friday, I'll have 9 days to punish myself with bike/swim. How do you recommend I spend those 9 days?
  • @Dave Gardner - congrats to you. Transitions be damned...that's low hanging fruit for the future. You will be fine and you HAVE TO see NZ. EPIC.

    So 9 days in NZ. There's no shortage of great riding and climbing there...like this: https://www.strava.com/activities/24218916  If you can bring a garmin and mount with you with a few routes...you'd be all set!  :smile:

    I say no rides longer than 4 hours...3 if you can....6am or 7am to 10am is doable. I am not that worried about the bike..it's the run. So i suggest you plan on some good uphill runs there for fun...have to be tons of options. 

    On the non-serious days, get 30' of aerobic time in if being active, or 45' if you are chilling with the family. Swim as you like.

    Also, if you have outlined your "hack" for the run stuff, I'd love to see/review/contribute!

    ~ Coach P 
  • Hi Coach!

    Alaskaman is in the books, completed it with a smile on my face and dancing across the finish line. RR to follow.

    Lolking for strategy for long term planning. I'm putting triathlon aside for awhile and switching back to my true love which is distance running. Long term goals are to complete the World Marathon Majors, and lower my times toward a lifetime PR over the next several years.

    I'm super excited to be running NYC in November and if recent years hold true Boston in April. Backing up from Boston I'll plan on a solid 16 week cycle and race it hard. My big question is what to do with New York. I'm currently on the 4 week post IM recovery plan and felling good. But with alaskaman being my first full I want to be cautious dipping back into hard core run training. I'm happy to put in mostly easy miles for New York, run easy and enjoy the race.

    What do you see as my options for training post IM recovery for the next 3-4 months?

     Warm regards
    Dave 
  • @Dave Gardner -   Man I thought the race was difficult until I saw some of the video and pictures afterwards. That race is insane. Congratulations on completing it! I hope your race report includes video of you dancing.   :D

     I am a little unclear if you need to qualify for Boston or if you already have? Sounds to me like you are already in a New York is just a fun race. If you can clarify for me that would be super helpful.

    We have a great build up but you can do for Boston but in the short term we need to transition you from recovery back to being an athlete. 

      This usually takes a few weeks of recovery, which you were doing. Then it takes another four weeks of training up, gradually, until we get to the point where we feel like you are ready to do more.  This will be both subjective on your part, and also by looking at some of your heart rate data to see if your body's experience matches what you normally see at those given paces. 

    If I had my way, you will still ride the bike once or twice a week while the weather is nice. Is that an option?

    Let me know about both of these questions as we can go from there!
  • edited July 26, 2017 10:48PM
    Yes, the dancing video is forthcoming!

    And yes, I qualified for Boston in Chicago last fall with a BQ-2:44 if that makes sense. So yes I qualified but since I'm a "squeaker" I won't know til registration day if I'll make the actual cutoff and I don't want to jinx myself.
  • Ok my comment got cut off twice so I'll try to add on here! 

    New York will be just a fun race. And I can continue to ride my bike. And on that note, I have an elliptigo which I'd like to incorporate into my training. It really does feel like you've run with zero impact.  Whether it's considered a ride or a run I've yet to decide, but it could be my secret weapon in my marathon arsenal! 

     I'd like to continue to swim 3 to 4 times a month, especially when the lakes cool off as I've grown to really love cold open water swimming. An excellent recovery tool perhaps?

    Dave
  • edited July 28, 2017 11:22AM
    @Dave Gardner -got it!. My friend has one of those things here in town, they look like a lot of fun just be safe… Helmet required at all times!

     My thoughts are that we want to build up your mileage through consistency now, and maybe incorporate some strength training. We want to balance program that gets you fit enough to achieve a good run in New York, but is a steppingstone to the hard work you're going to do for Boston.

    I suggest you take a look at the run durability level two or level III program as a template. Let me know what you think about it, then we can integrate a long run. And some strength training. How does that sound?
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